#31957, "RE: SS Nomadic In Dry Dock, Belfast" In response to Reply # 2
The ship is only open until this Sunday (23rd) and shuts her doors at 6pm! Then it closes and is locked up - yet again for months on end with no work being done on her. It is thought that work will start in the New Year according to the NCT.
As for the engines scenario - ah well, now there's a story I can tell you. In a nutshell, despite the Trust's uneducated ramblings it is still obvious to all that they don't want engines in her at all. To those that know the Trust well, it is for no other reason than because engines would rob them of further event space. As far as we are aware, the SS Nyanza's engines were still available but recent attempts at contact have met silence. So it's anyone's guess if they are still there.....
I cannot stress enough how this project has been hijacked by people who have no interest in Titanic or maritime heritage whatsoever. The past 3 years have proved this without any doubt. Under these people, the ship will look like an awful mess when they have finished with her. Of course, this must not be allowed to happen so your help and views are sorely needed.
#31963, "RE: SS Nomadic In Dry Dock, Belfast" In response to Reply # 3
>I cannot stress enough how this project has been hijacked by >people who have no interest in Titanic or maritime heritage >whatsoever. The past 3 years have proved this without any >doubt. Under these people, the ship will look like an awful >mess when they have finished with her. Of course, this must >not be allowed to happen so your help and views are sorely >needed. > >Roo. >
What you say above is very true, I'm glad more people are finally realising it! However I'm not sure what other peoples 'help and views' will do - the NCT is appointed by the DSD who own her, so it's unlikely that a few protesting voices will be able to change the management. More likely that the DSD would point to the conservation management plan and the £2.27m grant as proof of the success of the NCT.
I think it's inevitable that she will end up as a nasty pastiche of all things 'olde worlde' with a bit of a maritime theme. It must be remembered that even though the conservation management plan calls for a full and authentic restoration, including engines, (and actually encouraging the ship to be operated on trips), the NCT can ignore all of that advice. It is also laughable that the NCT have a figure of £5m for her restoration, which was quoted BEFORE the CMP was even completed - how can you say how much the work will cost before you even know what work needs to be done! Just another example of the NCT nonsense.
It's ludicrous to see those photos of her hull rusting and covered in mussels (and the area stinking because of them!), when a volunteer group could be cleaning them off and giving her a lick of paint to protect her for the time being. Unfortunately the NCT are too pig headed and selfish about the ship to allow that to happen, and the disintegration of the NPS over the last year or two might not even allow such a group to be assembled. It's all a very big mess.
#31966, "RE: SS Nomadic In Dry Dock, Belfast" In response to Reply # 7
>So, reading between the lines, are you saying that those who >are involved with the Nomadic project are and have jepodised >the vessel with their inexperience?. > >
Not everyone - I wouldn't like to label every person with that tag, but a vast majority - yes, they have jeopardised/compromised it, perhaps not through inexperience, but with having other motives for being involved in the project.
#31968, "RE: SS Nomadic In Dry Dock, Belfast" In response to Reply # 9
>So whats the position of the Nomadic and her future?. >Is Belfast her purminate home or a resting point until >something unforseen happens?. Other words, where will she be >in 5 years time.
Nomadic is owned by a dept. of the N.Ireland Government, so it's highly unlikely that she will move anywhere else.
When she was originally rescued and the savenomadic appeal was running, most people who donated wanted her fully restored as a steamship, preferably operating, but at the very least fully restored and static similar to HMS Belfast.
The NCT however seem to want her to be an entertainment venue, with open spaces for holding conferences etc, a museum area and I seem to remember an art exhibition area all within her spaces (and look what happened to the PS Ryde when it was used for a similar purpose). If you are familiar with Nomadic's interior layout, then you will appreciate that these plans are not possible without seriously compromising an authentic restoration. The NCT have continually refused any talk of installing engines, and say that the public don't want this, but no-one seems to know any member of the public who was asked!
In five years time? She'll probably be sitting where she is now, probably in a terrible state, while more reports are made and more consultants are employed by the NCT mandarins. Sorry to sound so negative about the project but once the volunteer element was locked out by the secrecy and selfishness of the NCT, it was always going to be a one sided affair, with the NCT's own desires riding rough-shod over a proper job.
#31969, "RE: SS Nomadic In Dry Dock, Belfast" In response to Reply # 10
Good thing she's not an animal. She would have been put to sleep by now if you take her current state into consideration. Lets hope it never turns that way. But things are not that positive by the looks of it, not at the moment, anyway. What a crying shame.
All that talk of restoration and getting her back to some form or former glory. Action speaks louder than words and the little Nomadic would fair better from that.
#31970, "RE: SS Nomadic In Dry Dock, Belfast" In response to Reply # 10
You are so right. Since the early days of the work being done (and done well) by volunteers and community groups, every single one of them has left and/or been 'kicked off'. Contemporary obsessions with Government backed contractors have replaced them even though the jobs done by them are hardly what you would call professional as I'm sure you know well.
With regards the hull growth, it has been left on because of fears that TBT and 25 other toxic chemicals found in the paintwork will pollute the Lagan. So the Environment Agency has forbidden removal until such a time as a licensed waste company can prove that they can remove it without a drop getting into the Abercorn Basin. But of course, Govt. regulations on organising someone to do this are making it all even worse! I'm sure it will be done - but at what cost?
As a counter note, it may even be completely un-necessary as the hull underneath all the growth was professionally shot blasted in 2003 when in French dry dock. The paint was tested prior to the ship being moved to the dry dock, so unless a diver was employed or similar, it is very possible that the reading was taken from paint on her hull above the water line and assumed this was carried on underneath! Time will tell if this is so.
But of interest is how much the NPS website/forum is being monitored by the DSD and the NCT. A post can be put on one evening and the next morning, I am being questioned about it by the Govt. Project Manager or someone on the NCT. I would like to think that even though the NPS is being continually shut out by the NCT, this is more of a nod to realising that the NPS could do a lot of damage to their plans for the ship. Which is why the NPS must keep on pushing.
Lastly, regards your 'art exhibition' area on the ship, I feel the present ship opening layout is merely a prototype to what they want as the finished article. I have attached a few photos to show members what to expect when the ship is completed. In the background of the drawing area is a theatre stage. I am sorry if you are all lost for words. Imagine how we feel having to physically see it!
Lastly, I do hope we will see you on the NPS forum again soon Keith. The more voices, the better - and believe me, it does and will make a difference as time will show. And don't forget the AGM next Wednesday where Denis Rooney is going to have to answer some pretty hard questions!
#31971, "RE: SS Nomadic In Dry Dock, Belfast" In response to Reply # 12
They say a picture says a thousand words, well those pictures say a million to me, and not one of them is complimentary! How any of that is supposed to make Nomadic look good is beyond me.
Can you explain more how any/many protesting voices can be used to change things? The NCT keep their meetings and all their goings-on private, and I can't see the DSD listening to another group in order to replace the NCT. I would be interested in hearing and maybe taking part if there is a way forward, but I genuinely cannot see how it is possible, and with sadness I feel the project is now dead as far as a proper restoration is concerned.
Even more surprising is the fact that people like Kathleen Neill and Bryan Patterson who are supposed to be Nomadic/Titanic enthusiasts can allow this shambles to happen with their names associated. I still fail to understand how BIH (which doesn't exist as an organisation), can have two nominees to the NCT! The lack of accountability and the state of plans for restoration means that I would not encourage or recommend anyone to donate money/artifacts etc to the NCT. Although she is open at the minute, I would not pay the admission fee to contribute to more NCT consultants being paid, or indeed to shock myself at the state of the ship.
I'm afraid I am no longer a member of the NPS, due to my realisation that the whole project was going nowhere and the NPS was internally disintregrating and becoming unaccountable. (How can the interior panels etc. be 'given' to the Trust by someone who isn't on the NPS committee and without the NPS members having a say!) It has been made clear that non members are not welcome at the AGM which surprises me since most other groups see it as a useful recruiting and information session. David has also asked that questions for Denis be forwarded to him in advance, which strikes me that only 'nice' questions will be allowed.
Anyone know a lotto winner that could make the DSD a good offer?
#31975, "RE: SS Nomadic In Dry Dock, Belfast" In response to Reply # 0 Sat Aug-22-09 01:39 PMby Roo
Hi again Keith,
I understand your frustration - this you have to believe. But please don't give up on it. Some things are always worth fighting for irrespective of who owns what. But of course, how can things change in the real world? Well, soon they will and all will become apparent in quite a big way.
Regards your NPS concerns, first of all the panelling hasn't been given to the NCT. It is soon going to be moved to a more secure location - and restoration of the lifeboat has already commenced. Secondly, David does indeed have some questions for Denis and they are not nice and friendly. I have seen them and they are very hard hitting and to the point, especially given the recommendations of the recently published CMP. Lastly, even though you are no longer a member of the NPS, if you would like to attend the AGM then I invite you as my guest. If anyone questions you, just ask for me when you arrive. The meeting is being held in the Studio Room of the Thompson Dock Pump House at 7pm on the 26th August (this Wednesday).
The same invite goes to anybody else in the vicinity who might be reading this. A show of force to set the ball rolling you could say.
#31976, "RE: SS Nomadic In Dry Dock, Belfast" In response to Reply # 13
Nice snaps Roops.
Keith, Roops, i'll be in touch with you guys real soon about all this.
hypothetical conversation between Heritage enthusiast and Nomadic Trust member... Be warned, its long! :-)
I would like to state that this is completely fictitious (to the best of my knowledge hehe) and not attributed to any real individuals. It may however provide some of you folks with a clearer idea of how many see the current Nomadic situation.
HE: Hey, Nomadic is back in Belfast, this is great, when will she be restored? TM: 2011. HE: 2011!!! wow how can a bunch of folks who have mostly never demonstrated any prior interest in maritime heritage and have no knowledge of historic ship restoration get the job done in 18 months when most other restorations have taken 15, 20, 30 or more years? It sounds incredible. TM: It is not going to take 18 months. HE: Well now that sounds a bit more realistic, how long is it going to take then? TM: 6 months!!! HE: WHAaa? TM: Yes, you see it will probably be another year before we get all the consultants reports in, raise enough money and complete tenders for the work to begin. HE: how do you ever hope to make those targets, it seems ludicrous! TM: We are confident of meeting our objectives of completion in 2011. HE: But how could you possibly be? How can an entire historic ship be sensitively and authentically rebuilt in 24 weeks? what are these absurd ideas based upon? TM: We are confident that the ship will be completed by 2011, no further comment! HE: Very well then, what kind of restoration level is planned for the ship? TM: We have not made a firm decision on that yet. HE: But the Nomadic has been back in Belfast for over three years, are you saying that you still, after all that time, don't know what you are going to do with it yet? TM: Well i don't think i would put it like that exactly. HE: Well how would you put it? TM: It's a rather involved project, these things take time! HE: Well is it going to be a complete ship again? Will there be steam? Nomadic IS a steam ship after all! TM: Currently there are no plans to install any operational machinery or steam plant. HE: But how can that be considered a restored ship? Engines are the heart of the ship. TM: Ahh well you see Nomadic is not actually a ship. HE: WHAaaa? what do you mean? TM: Well when her powerplant was removed she was removed from the register of vessels... she is now officially designated as a hulk! So she is not really looked upon in ship terms by the law. HE: But numerous reports and experts have said that she is more than worthy and capable of being reinstated as a seagoing vessel! TM: I don't wish to go into all that, besides that sort of thing would complicate the business plans we have developed, making it more difficult to meet our goals. HE: And what are those? TM: To be finished by 2011!!! HE: Don't you think it would be better to settle on what is best for the future of the ship and accept, like all other restoration efforts, that this is going to take as long as it takes? TM: I'm afraid that would impact negatively on the core principles of our restoration and funding plans. HE: Which are what exactly? TM: To be done, dusted, collect our medals and out of there by 2011! HE: O.K, O.K. but surely you must admit that a fully restored and complete restoration would be better for the ship, even as a tourist draw? TM: It is a romantic idea but i'm afraid it would cost just too much, engines for example would cost millions according to our consultants. HE: But those consultants had no experience of historic ship restoration is that not right? And even they, in their £30,000+ report of 2007, acknowledged that a fully operational ship would undoubtably offer greatest potential of longterm success if the required funding was in place. TM: Yes but buying engines would add millions to the cost. HE: But it has been established that suitable engines and all steam plant is available at less than a tenth of those crazy estimates! Is'nt it true that these experts quoted a full restoration at £40,000,000 without even visiting the ship to inspect it first? It was all guesswork by people who were out of their depth is'nt that right? TM: We have full faith in our people and stand by the report. EH: Well then why, when everybody blew a gasket over this crazy £40,000,000 figure, did some chap eventually take a walk around the ship for an hour or so and decide to knock £12,000,000 off the estimate, just like that!!! TM: I am not at liberty to delve into that. EH: There is something not right here. An entire period steam power system was offered to you for less than it is costing to employ the current fund raiser and project manager on a two year contract and all you can do is think up reasons not to accept it. Something is wrong. TM: According to our consultants there is not adequate justification for installing engines, that sort of thing is not important to visitors. EH: Surely you must be either mad or joking, were visitors ever asked? TM: Oh yes there was a survey carried out in 2007. EH: Now we're getting somewhere, were people asked if there should be engines in the ship? Surely one of the most obvious questions bearing in mind the ongoing controversy surrounding the issue. TM: Er... no! EH: NO!!! i am really getting the impression that there is some sort of concerted plan to actively avoid this issue. TM: Thats, er... ahem, a ridiculous idea. Visitors were after all asked if they thought the ship should be fully restored. EH: Oh really, thats encouraging, what were the findings? TM: 52% said yes. EH: So the majority DO want the job done right, surely that should settle the matter then, so whats the problem? TM: Well our advisors indicate that although it was a majority, it may not be a big enough majority to justify bothering with all that complicated steam engine business. EH: I have seen this survey and the way it was worded. Do you think that if the issue of steam capability and restoration level had not been underplayed that the figure of 52% would have been significantly higher? TM: I couldn't possibly speculate on that. The bottom line is that a proper restoration would unrealistically stretch our funding prospects, especially bearing in mind the limited timeframe. HE: Does this not suggest that the restoration should be planned over a more realistic timeframe? You could set your sights high and do a much better job... is'nt that what everyone else does? No other restorations, of any type, set deadlines like this... the whole thing certainly seems very odd indeed. TM: We would like the ship finished to celebrate her centenary. HE: But why can't the ship be celebrated, finished or not? You have already claimed unqualified successes of both occasions when the ship has opened to the public... and the restoration has not even started yet!!! What you seem to be saying is that you to plan to celebrate Nomadic by making a rushed and half baked job of her restoration against the wishes of supporters and advice of genuine experts? TM: The Nomadic Charitable Trust are fully committed to the restoration of SS Nomadic. HE: Well then why does the whole project seem so lacklustre and confused? TM: I can assure you that we are all working very hard, you are obviously not aquianted with the complex dynamics of the operation. HE: Then why don't you explain them to me? Why is everything shrouded in such mystery? TM: I really wouldn't say it is like that. HE: Then why don't you publish what goes on and is decided at your Trust meetings? They are all held in private. The ship is owned by the public after all and a lot of public money continues to go into what the Trust does. TM: You must understand that a lot of these things are very sensitive. HE: In what context? I don't think Nomadic represents a national security threat and yet it seems to be run like a covert MI5 operation! TM: I don't think that is a fair Comment. HE: Well then why does absolutely everything suggest the complete opposite to what you are saying? TM: I don't believe that is the case. HE: Hold on then, let me think. All Trust meetings and decisions are held in secret, or at least behind closed doors and not published. Detailed accounts are private or hard to obtain and make sense of. Little or no information about what is being done to the ship is available. What is planned or what Trust members or people on the payrole are actually doing or have done is a mystery. The only announcements are vague sound bites that do not inform the public and skirt around the issues that everybody wishes clarified. The Trust has never engaged in public discussion about the ship, it's future or the restoration. There is no official medium through which to openly question, enquire or express views on the project. The Trust website is unresponsive and totally lacking in relevant ongoing information regarding the ship. Nowhere is opportunity given to comment, discuss, leave suggestions or ask questions openly. The Trust now have a Facebook page, a worldwide facility for socialising, talking and networking - and yet all functions allowing people to leave comments, engage in discussion or talk about the ship are disabled!!! These are the bare facts of the matter, does this sound normal? TM: The Trust are completely committed to Nomadic. HE: Some people are saying that elements within the Trust have always had ideas about how easy, fast and commercialised they want to make this project and that it has little to do with maritime heritage, public opinion or what is best for SS Nomadic. TM: I have already stated that the ship is to be completed by 2011. There is a limit to the funds we can hope to raise within that timeframe. Compromises may have to be made in order to satisfy that criteria but we are completely committed to the restoration of SS Nomadic. HE: But can't you see that those criteria are flawed? They conflict with the whole ethos of the project, are counter productive and make no common sense. The whole thing is in danger of descending into an embarrassing fiasco. That would be a shameful crime. TM: I really don't think that is correct, we are confident that we are on track, the project is already a huge success. HE: but how can you stand there and say that? It is totally at odds with what everybody can plainly see! Isn't it true that virtually everybody who had genuine passion and enthusiasm for the ship has been frozen out in favour of highly paid consultants and companies who will not question the Trust? The whole thing bears a shady whiff of manipulation and cronyism. It has been suggested that if everything was brought out into the open a number of prominent people might be shown in a very dim light and a lot of folks would be outraged, is that why everything is so furtively stage managed by a small group and kept under strict wraps? The Trust has always refused to engage with or even acknowledge the existance of alternative opinions, views, advice or support, nevertheless they have consistently failed to satisfactorily explain the method or basis behind their own strange behavior and bizarre logic. Even the countless volunteers and original fans have all deserted in disgust or been given the brush off when they began to put two and two together. How is any of this ever likely to succeed under these circumstances? How can Nomadic possibly reach her potential when all those who know the ship best are treated like impertinent upstarts and troublemakers? How can any of this be to the benefit of the community when they are actively excluded and enthusiasts are viewed as an interfering niusance? When will the authorities realise that their expectation of complete unquestioning deference as the price of involvement is a filter which has removed all those with real love and a conscientious sense of responsibility towards the ship and the protection of our heritage? Is that the whole point? Is Nomadic to become a sacrifice on the alter of ego, arrogance and the prospect of easy money for a hand picked few? Surely things must change very soon, if only to dispell growing ill will and introduce some faith and transparency to the whole thing. What is it going to take in order to fix all this, a public enquiry? TM: The Charitable Trust is commi... HE: Oh i give up!
Mervyn Pritchard Former Maintenance Officer SS Nomadic.
#31980, "RE: SS Nomadic In Dry Dock, Belfast" In response to Reply # 14
What a mess. Although I've got very little time and live on a completely different continent, what can I do to help? Letters or correspondence? E-mails? Some of the other Titanic researchers who frequent this forum (and whose names are internationally recognized) might also be interested in sending a message to the powers that be. Feel free to message me off-board on the subject, if you like.
#32024, "RE: SS Nomadic In Dry Dock, Belfast" In response to Reply # 18
Thanks for your comments, there is certainly something you can do. But more importantly, is there anything the TRMA as an organisation could do? I say this for the following reason :-
Given that Nomadic is the only surviving ship of the White Star Line and that she is directly linked to Titanic and her brief story, I have always been surprised why so many Titanic groups/organisations/societies the world over aren't breaking their backs by bending over backwards to help? Some groups aren't even interested in her - as crazy as this sounds. Nomadic has the most unbelievable potential to be the premier Titanic attraction in the world - IF done correctly. And this is why catapulting her to global awareness amongst all groups etc really is so important.
Therefore, would the TRMA be interested in creating a section on this website solely for Nomadic and her plight? Because even though she has been 'saved', a new fight to save her from a humiliating existence is just about to start. And we are going to need as much exposure as possible, locally as well as internationally.
Why are we doing this you may ask? Well, Mervyn's hypothetical discussion is as close to the truth as you could get. A government dept. and a trust controlled by totally dis-interested people in Titanic are the ship's supposed saviours. Seeming that the majority of the funds raised for her 'restoration' will come from public money, the government are more interested in contemporary obsessions and political correctness than actual restoration. For example, the ship's engine room is most likely going to be rebuilt as a children's theatre according to her current owners. In other words, the ship is going be restored as a Nomadic shaped multi use venue to satisfy government criteria. I think that sums up what they think of it all - and why we must do all we can to oppose this and create a tide of support that we hope will wash these people aside in favour of this ship being managed by true passionate and enthusiatic folk.
So, our closing question for you, what are you willing to do to help?
#55611, "RE: SS Nomadic In Dry Dock, Belfast" In response to Reply # 20
Hi Kent Photobucket went from a free photo hosting service to a pricey pay service overnight. They thought that people would pay their ransom to get their photos back. It doesn't seem to be working. Unfortunately the photos can't be retrieved without paying the ransom. Regards Bob Read
#55633, "RE: SS Nomadic In Dry Dock, Belfast" In response to Reply # 20
If you use Firefox, it has an addon you can download that lets you still see Photobucket pictures on forums like this. I am doing that right now, seeing the pictures here on the forum with no problems.
/Best Regards Pontus
New owner of:
Titanic 350 Minicraft Many PE parts Awaiting scaledecks Davies-Garners fantastic book TITANIC - The Ship Magnificent
#55641, "RE: SS Nomadic In Dry Dock, Belfast" In response to Reply # 25
There was mention up-thread about an extension to the Firefox web browser that would allow Photobucket images to be viewed. So far I have not been able to get it to work, and I was just asking the poster for clarification.