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Subject: "Ash hoist installation" Previous topic | Next topic
Ralph CurrellThu Feb-11-10 09:59 PM
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#34677, "Ash hoist installation"


          

Hi all,

I've seen drawings and photos of the Railton, Campbell & Crawford ash hoist before, but this diagram showing the installation in Olympic was new to me.



I had not realized it was mounted at an angle like that.

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Ash hoist installation, Jonathan, Feb 12th 2010, #1
RE: Ash hoist installation, Ralph Currell, Feb 12th 2010, #2
      RE: Ash hoist installation, Jonathan, Feb 12th 2010, #3
           RE: Ash hoist installation, Bill West, Feb 12th 2010, #4
                RE: Ash hoist installation, Ralph Currell, Feb 12th 2010, #5
                     RE: Ash hoist installation, Bill West, Jan 11th 2012, #6
                          RE: Ash hoist installation, Ralph Currell, Jan 12th 2012, #7
                               RE: Ash hoist installation, tucky, Jan 13th 2012, #8
                                    RE: Ash hoist installation, Bill West, Jan 14th 2012, #9
                                         RE: Ash hoist installation, Ralph Currell, Jan 15th 2012, #10
                                              RE: Ash hoist installation, tucky, Jan 15th 2012, #11
                                                   RE: Ash hoist installation, tucky, Jan 16th 2012, #12
                                                        RE: Ash hoist installation, Bill West, Jan 17th 2012, #13
                                                             RE: Ash hoist installation, tucky, Jan 17th 2012, #14
                                                                  RE: Ash hoist installation, tucky, Jan 17th 2012, #15
                                                                  RE: Ash hoist installation, Scott Andrews, Jan 17th 2012, #16
                                                                       RE: Ash hoist installation, tucky, Jan 17th 2012, #17
                                                                            RE: Ash hoist installation, Bill West, Jan 18th 2012, #18
                                                                                 RE: Ash hoist installation, tucky, Jun 09th 2012, #19
                                                                                 RE: Ash hoist installation, tucky, Apr 02nd 2017, #20
                                                                                      RE: Ash hoist installation, Ralph Currell, Apr 03rd 2017, #21

JonathanFri Feb-12-10 02:43 AM
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#34681, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Nice find, Ralph.

Question - where you see it cut through the 3rd class dining room, the sections indicated in the plan, are they against a bulkhead wall?

Jonathan

  

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Ralph CurrellFri Feb-12-10 07:26 AM
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#34688, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Jonathan,

The ash hoist trunk was up against the wall of the ash ejector enclosure. It can be seen in the drawing on page 425 of Titanic: The Ship Magnificent, Vol.2 on the port side at frames 6F/7F.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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JonathanFri Feb-12-10 09:23 AM
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#34696, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

Got it, thanks Ralph.

Jonathan

  

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Bill WestFri Feb-12-10 02:37 PM
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#34699, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 3


          

Wonder what the small pipe discharge fitting below the ash ejector outlet is? It’s not the boiler blowdowns, they show elsewhere.

Bill

  

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Ralph CurrellFri Feb-12-10 10:24 PM
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#34710, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 4


          

>Wonder what the small pipe discharge fitting below the ash
>ejector outlet is?

Bill,

I don't know. The pipe runs parallel to the ash ejector for at least part of its length. It shows up below the starboard ash ejector too.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Bill WestWed Jan-11-12 01:45 AM
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#44618, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 5


          

Tucky’s given us another example with today’s Mast Light thread / Ceramic post, Ralph.
http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=44559&mesg_id=44613&page=
Pg 40 of that excellent book also shows discharge pipes, this time over the ash ejector outlets. Not sure if the piping is any more traceable however, even on a better copy. Interesting how similar the machinery arrangement is here, sort of a miniature Olympic class.

Bill

  

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Ralph CurrellThu Jan-12-12 08:11 PM
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#44641, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 6


          

Hi Bill,

Thanks for pointing that out. I still have no idea what that little discharge pipe might be.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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tuckyFri Jan-13-12 09:04 PM
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#44649, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

Hi Ralph Bill,

I traced the pipe run on better quality pictures of the Ceramic Boiler Room.
I have highlighted in yellow the path I believe this pipe runs.

END ELEVATION




ELEVATION




PLAN VIEW


In the plan view, it is very hard to determine if this pipe is shown and what its run would be.

I hope someone with more knowledge about Ash Ejectors can clarify this better.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Steven Tuckwood

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)
Attachment #3, (jpg file)

  

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Bill WestSat Jan-14-12 04:30 PM
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#44668, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 8


          

Thanks for the great work Steven! I take it you’ve got a good engineering library nearby.

I’m satisfied that this pipe is bring high pressure water from the ash hoist control valve. Maybe they found that some of the lumps of ash scattered in the wind or that the final discharge left a dirt stain down the side of the ship. Using this pipe to run a spray nozzle over the ash outlet would be a way to stop that. I Googled Mr See and found lots of period references but none mentioned this detail so I’m only guessing so far.

Bill

  

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Ralph CurrellSun Jan-15-12 10:48 AM
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#44681, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 9


          

Thanks for the plans Steven. Are they from the 'Shipbuilder'?

Bill, the idea of a water discharge for washing ash residue makes sense for the Ceramic where the outlet is above the ash discharge, but on Olympic the mystery discharge is below, and possibly offset to one side.



I wonder instead if it's an air inlet to prevent a vacuum forming in the water pipe loop. We see similar features on the funnel water pipes and WC discharges.




Disclaimer: I'm not a plumber so I may be way off-base with this.


Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)
Attachment #3, (jpg file)

  

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tuckySun Jan-15-12 05:58 PM
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#44686, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

Hi Bill / Ralph,

I did get the plans from the Shipbuilder magazine.

I also believed the pipe to be either a Breather Pipe or Pressure Release.

I am also not that much into plumbing either, so my comments are from my own point of view.

Anyway, I found a link to a copy of the 1912 Stokers Manual. Very interesting, but doesn't go into that much detail about removing the Ash.

It's on an Aussie website for the preservation of the 1868 Monitor Class Warship CERBERUS.

http://www.cerberus.com.au/stokers_manual.pdf

Regards,

Steven Tuckwood

  

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tuckyMon Jan-16-12 05:06 AM
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#44688, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

Hi Ralph / Bill,

I will try to remember when posting images/drawings to include the source where I got them from in future.

Regarding the See's Ash Ejectors:

I found an entry on page 602 in the 1893 book American Engineer Volume LXVIII.

It states the following:

"In order that there may be no clogging it is found necessary to admit some air with the stream of water. This is done by placing an air-valve in the inclined pipe. Sometimes it is placed in the delivery pipe near the top of the hopper, and somelinies at the point marked by a circle in the engraving."

As this is for the RECENTLY DESIGNED HYDRO-PNEUMATIC ASH EJECTOR (back in 1893), it could be determined that by 1910 the design had been improved upon, and the air stream could have been introduced into the pipework prior to entering the bottom of the hopper. Similar to what is shown on the Ceramic drawings.

The link to the book is as follows:

http://www.archive.org/details/americanengineer67newy

What are your thoughts.

Regards,

Steven Tuckwood

  

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Bill WestTue Jan-17-12 02:44 AM
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#44703, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 12


          

A search for "See's" "ash ejector" causes Google.ca’s preview of “ENGINEERS AND ENGINEERING IN THE ROYAL NAVY” at onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1559-3584.1914...x/pdf to show page 583 from the Journal of the American Society for Naval Engineers, Volume 26, Issue 2, May 1914.
It says that “The type, known as the See’s ash ejector, was found to work most successfully, but it left a trail of ashes in the wake of the ship, and to obviate that a later form of ejector is used which the ashes and water are discharged through a pipe in the ship’s bottom.” (the later form was Stone’s).
I think this shows that there were some improvements being sought in the system so our pipe may still be to do with dust control. CC Pounder’s Machinery and Pipe Arrangement pg 332 mentions that fine ash blowing back on deck was a disadvantage to See’s.

Now for the latest posts, as you say Ralph an air vent on the funnel overflow loops breaks any vacuum, that prevents minor amounts of overflowing water from starting a syphon effect and emptying the water tank. And a WC vent is to do with the water trap, when waves hit the side of the ship they push the air in the discharge up and without a vent, up goes the trap water into the WC. Conversely when the wave goes down it could suck the water out. At the ash ejector however I don’t think there is a water trap, so using our pipe as an air intake seems unlikely.

Another book showing See’s, Steven, is "Verbal" Notes and Sketches, JWM Sothern, 1916 http://www.archive.org/details/verbalnotessketc00soth Page 148. It too shows the anti clogging air vent you pointed out. It also mentions having the water supply pump brought up to pressure first. As that is 200 psi that means that closing the ejector’s lever operated valve when you are done could give the piping quite a water hammer shock. With our pipe appearing to connect to an older, separately mounted control valve an alternative use for it could be to accept a diversion of the flow when the ejector is stopped or cycled. After the fireman is done he could shut the supply off softly with an ordinary valve. Verbal’s figure, item P, includes the phrase escape valve which adds to my suspicions here even although this one just appears to dump into the bilge. The usage could even be simultaneous with dust control.

You don’t suppose the Olympic had the discharge pipe as a relief and then someone said raise it a bit and it’ll do dust control too ???

Bill

  

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tuckyTue Jan-17-12 12:31 PM
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#44705, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

Hi Bill,

I now realise my comment was not plausible, due to the fact that the water pressure was to reach 200 PSI, it would require an air inlet pressure equal to or greater than that of the water. The pipe in those pictures would only be at atmospheric pressure.

I also thought the pipe may be for routing the water whilst the hopper was being filled and your suggestion about a dual purpose for dust control also seems credible.

As the Olympic had its pipe below the ash ejector, and the Ceramic had it above the ash ejector, would it have been possible that on the Britannic they may have relocated it as well.

I wonder if anyone has photos or drawings of the system in the Britannic seeing that it was constructed after the Ceramic.

Regards,

Steven Tuckwood

  

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tuckyTue Jan-17-12 01:46 PM
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#44706, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

Hi Bill,

Attached is a zip file containing a PDF of extracted pages from the Marine Engineer Volume 32.
It shows the control valve for the Schaffer & Budenberg Ash Ejector.
The Ash Ejector iself is of similar design as the See's version.
The control valve shows a switching position for the water to go to the EJECTOR and the oposite position to the SEA.
The schematic on the following page shows the TO SEA connection being returned to the Pump Inlet/Suction pipe. This may be the case for a single unit, but I believe for multiple units in larger liners, they would have piped it similar to what is shown on the Olympic and Ceramic drawings.

Regards,

Steven Tuckwood

http://www.titanic-model.com/dc/user_files/12285.zip

Attachment #1, (zip file)

  

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Scott AndrewsTue Jan-17-12 03:12 PM
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#44707, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

"...I wonder if anyone has photos or drawings of the system in the Britannic seeing that it was constructed after the Ceramic..."

Steven,

Britannic was equipped with Stone's Underline Ash Expellers rather than the See's Ash Ejectors fitted aboard her older sisters. Railton, Campbell & Crawford ash hoists were still employed for disposal of ash in port.

Regards,
Scott Andrews
TRMA Trustee

  

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tuckyTue Jan-17-12 06:12 PM
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#44709, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

Scott,

Thank You for the clarification.

Regards,

Steven Tuckwood

  

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Bill WestWed Jan-18-12 01:45 PM
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#44714, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 17


          

Another good find Steven, I think you are pointing us to our answers. I assume you noticed the air valve by the base mounting flange in that Marine Engineer photo.

See Marine Engines and Boilers.... , Gustav Bauer, Germany 1905 pg 622 http://www.archive.org/details/marineenginesan00donkgoog
(go to the HTTP files and right click/save target on the PDF to get past Google’s limits)
The supply water goes to a 3/4” nozzle at the bottom of the 6” ash discharge pipe. The water pressure disappears at the nozzle and becomes velocity. So the air valve can relieve air under heaped ashes, maybe supply air to be dragged along by the water so as to draw the ashes in and possibly it drains residual water from the ash pipe.

In time order we have:
-Horace See’s, USA. Appears to have just dumped the starting water to the bilge or maybe it’s just back draining the ash pipe.
-Howaldtswerke, Germany and Schaffer & Budenberg, England. Added a fast acting pilot operated valve. It has a surge bottle and a throttling bolt on the return line to the sea or the pump.
-Olympic dumped the start up water overboard. With guidance from the Ceramic’s boiler room cross section I think Olympic’s drawings are also hinting at a fast acting starting valve standing next to the ejector. If it allowed flow in both directions then it could help with the dust too
-Ceramic has the fast acting starting valve, presumably of See’s design, and the repositioned starting discharge hints at taking the dust control further.
-Britannic went to bottom expellers.

It sounds like ejectors were a successful solution to getting the ashes out of the boiler room but difficulties persisted with what happened after that.

Bill

  

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tuckySat Jun-09-12 08:34 PM
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#46908, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

Hi Ralph, Bill,

Johnathan Smith posted the following advertisement for the Sees Ash Ejectors from The Shipbuilding Magazine on his Facebook page, showing that they were the improved Trewent and Proctor models.

I did a patent search and found the two PDF's in the attached ZIP file.

They do not answer the question regarding the additional pipe, but I thought you might find them interesting if you did not already have them.




http://www.titanic-model.com/dc/user_files/13047.zip


Regards,

Steven Tuckwood

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (zip file)

  

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tuckySun Apr-02-17 02:31 PM
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#54869, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

Hi Bill and Ralph,

I was looking through my books over the weekend and found a functional description for the Sees Ash Ejector.
The book is from 1909 and probably does not tell you any more than you already know but I thought I'd post it for your reference.

Regards,

Steven Tuckwood








Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)
Attachment #3, (jpg file)

  

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Ralph CurrellMon Apr-03-17 07:29 AM
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#54873, "RE: Ash hoist installation"
In response to Reply # 20


          

Steven,

Thanks for those images. I had not seen that book before.

The relief valve on page 297 is interesting. I've seen other arrangements where the relief valve discharges through the bottom of the ship.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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