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Subject: "The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?" Previous topic | Next topic
CDFri May-11-12 05:43 AM
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#46549, "The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"


          

Hi folks, does anyone here know if any high resolution, detailed or clear images exist of the Titanic, Olympic or Britannic's larger Grand Staircase Cherub?

I know there are photos of the Titanic and of the Olympic from the usual outlets like the Welch photos, but does anyone know if any exist from say passengers or anything? I know they don't from the Titanic but I'm sure in Olympic's service more photos than just the official H&W images were taken, possibly by her passengers, and what about the Britannic?

I need to gather as much information and photographic data as possible and if anyone here can help or point me in the right direction please let me know, feel free to PM me?

Thanks!
J

  

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inactive user iconcharcor (SETUP_INACTIVE_USER_LABEL)Sat May-12-12 12:52 AM
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#46568, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat May-12-12 01:20 AMby charcor

          

J,
I donít know how much I can help, but hereís some images I found of Titanicís recovered cherub. RMST plays down the fact that the cherub they have is likely from the aft GSC , and itís usually displayed in from of a photo of the more ornate forward staircase on Olympic.


Olympicsí forward cherub faced port, and the aft one starboard, so it was likely the same on Titanic.



I donít know who sculpted the original cherubs, likely different artists. Olympic and Titanicís cherubs arenít copies of each other. The cherub recovered from Titanic is different, and looks much more cherubicÖyounger than both the Olympic statues. The torch and light fixture were likely added to suit the designerís needs. These cherubs were very popular around 1910, and could have been copies from much older statues even marbles. One artist I suspect as responsible for Titanicís statue is Francios Duquesney. But itís just a guess.


I think the cherub from Cameronís Titanic set, as well as the Branson and Orlando recreations are copies. They all three share a likeness to Don Lynch!!!! (Maybe an inside joke/Homage)
The Orlando statue (above right)has the same finish as C3PO!!!

Finally, the Belfast GSC interpretation is down right insulting!!!!


The whole recreation looks like they spent less than 50 bucks on it, but this statue looks more like a gargoyle than a cherub!!!!!
I hope the taste level changes over there soon. If not, I think I might put this museum further down on my bucket list.

Hope this helps, but if not I still found it a lot of fun!!

Charles


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Replies to this subthread
RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, Jonathan, May 12th 2012, #4
      RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, mauretania1906, May 13th 2012, #5
      RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, Ralph Currell, May 13th 2012, #6
           Are They Even Cherubs?, mauretania1906, May 13th 2012, #7
                RE: Are they Even Cherubs?, Marco Tulner, May 13th 2012, #8
                     RE: Are they Even Cherubs?, Jerry Vondeling, May 13th 2012, #9
                          RE: Are they Even Cherubs?, mauretania1906, May 13th 2012, #10
                               The Putti Figure, mauretania1906, May 13th 2012, #11
                                    RE: The Putti Figure, danielk, May 13th 2012, #12
                                         RE: The Putti Figure, mauretania1906, May 13th 2012, #13
                                         Possible ID in Olympic photo, Ralph Currell, May 13th 2012, #15
                                              RE: Possible ID in Olympic photo, mauretania1906, May 13th 2012, #16
                                         RE: The Putti Figure, charcor, May 13th 2012, #14
                                              RE: The Putti Figures, mauretania1906, May 13th 2012, #17
                                                   RE: The Putti Figures, CD, May 14th 2012, #18
                                                   RE: The Putti Figures, Jerry Vondeling, May 14th 2012, #19
      RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, agroppe, May 14th 2012, #20
           RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, CD, May 15th 2012, #21
                RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, mauretania1906, May 18th 2012, #22
                     RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, mauretania1906, Oct 14th 2012, #23
                          RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, bigboatbill, Oct 14th 2012, #24
                               RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, CD, Oct 15th 2012, #25
                                    RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, jrayder, Oct 18th 2012, #26
                                         RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, William W. Young, Oct 18th 2012, #27
                                         RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, jrayder, Oct 19th 2012, #28
                                              RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, William W. Young, Oct 19th 2012, #29
                                         RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, CD, Oct 23rd 2012, #30
                                         RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, mauretania1906, Oct 23rd 2012, #31
                                              RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, CD, Nov 24th 2012, #32
                                         RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, cryptic03, Mar 12th 2013, #33
                                              RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, William W. Young, Mar 13th 2013, #34
                                                   RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, jrayder, Mar 14th 2013, #35
                                                        RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, William W. Young, Mar 16th 2013, #36
                                                             RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, Thomas Cros, Jul 04th 2014, #37
                                                                  RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, Thomas Cros, Jul 04th 2014, #38
                                                                  RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?, Elnar, Jul 05th 2014, #39

    
JonathanSat May-12-12 04:14 AM
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#46569, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

The cherub in the Belfast Exhibition staircase looks like it has come from 'Clash of the Titans' film set. Hideous is a understatement.

Jonathan
TRMA Trustee

  

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mauretania1906Sun May-13-12 11:24 AM
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#46585, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 4
Sun May-13-12 11:25 AMby mauretania1906

  

          

I am not sure either of those cherubs match - which one of the archival photographs has its left foot raised and its right arm raised?

Best wishes,
Eric

  

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Ralph CurrellSun May-13-12 12:35 PM
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#46586, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 5
Sun May-13-12 12:36 PMby Ralph Currell

          

Hi Eric,

Neither of the Olympic photos matches the cherub recovered from the wreck. As I understand it no photos of Titanic's first class staircases exist, so it might be the case that Titanic used a different style of cherub.

Or the wreck-style cherub might have been used on both ships at another location. I don't believe we have much information about the staircases at the lower levels.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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mauretania1906Sun May-13-12 01:44 PM
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#46587, "Are They Even Cherubs?"
In response to Reply # 6
Sun May-13-12 04:40 PMby mauretania1906

  

          

Hi Ralph,

The one thimg that strikes me is the proportions of arm to head, hair, location of "clothing" other body parts, and style of leg (adjustable arms too on Tianic's item indicate a more "stock" item)- very different among one of the three. I was wondering if this was even was a cherub as so much is often assumed - it is a not - it seems it is a "Putti" apparently. Listed here as a "cherub", is among Putti and one can see the similarities. Strictly speaking, as described in the Bible's Book of Ezekial, a cherub would have four to six wings and several faces (ox, lion, eagle etc.) and other mixed body parts.

http://pinterest.com/jrlah/putti-ed-angeli/

"The misuse of the term Cherubs for the Putti and their use in art as symbols of innocence has become so commonplace and time honored that it is now considered correct. Commonplace and correct are not always the same. Most people don't even know about the authentic Cherubim, who are among the highest ranked and holiest of God's Angels or realize they have been replaced with mischievous little demons from Pagan religion in much of our Western Art tradition." - from http://www.howarddavidjohnson.com/Angel-art.htm

I will look more into this. This might make a good article I remember there was much discussion about the clock and its symbolism.
With what I recall from this thread
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/6584/120916.html?1187889022
Putti seems much more likely. What are these described as in TTSM?

Best,
Eric

  

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Marco TulnerSun May-13-12 02:23 PM
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#46589, "RE: Are they Even Cherubs?"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

In my opinion you are right Eric. The recovered statue from the Titanic is indeed a putti. And it's much different from the Olympic's statues.
If you look closely to the Olympic photographs, you see that the entire lightfixture is not touching the body of the statue.
The recovered statue has holes in the chest, belly and the leg. That means that the lightfixture was mounted on the body, and thus covering the sexe of the statue instead of the cloth that can be seen on the statues of Olympic.

Regards,
Marco Tulner

  

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Jerry VondelingSun May-13-12 02:52 PM
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#46590, "RE: Are they Even Cherubs?"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

Also Olympic's "angelic statue" had wings, which Titanic's seems to be missing, at first I thought they might have broken off.|
Not having noticed the differences at first glance.

Jerry

  

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mauretania1906Sun May-13-12 04:27 PM
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#46591, "RE: Are they Even Cherubs?"
In response to Reply # 9
Sun May-13-12 04:41 PMby mauretania1906

  

          

Hi Jerry,

I think we mostly assumed the wings went the way of the torch, if there ever was one. One wonders of this item was used in another way or location, or packed and unrelated to Titanic's decor, considering the stylistic differences are so many. Just the rendering of the hair... The rotating arms are perhaps the most suggestive point as their presence may indicate a mass produced or non-dedicated item.

Best wishes,
Eric

  

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mauretania1906Sun May-13-12 07:37 PM
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#46592, "The Putti Figure"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

Hello again,

In the papers I posted here regarding the symbolism employed in the design of just the capital of the pilaster from the Lounge of the Mauretania I authenticated and sold, it was obvious there was some serious use of the old and ancient motifs, designs and symbols on these ships - such that the symbols would read almost as a sentence by physical association. Nothing was "decorative"; all had some means to further the statement. Having just been reading about these putti figures, and this example and its possible relation to other items (clocks etc., but this seems much smaller) on the Titanic, one might find it interesting if not fruitful to speculate on the original location of this figure from the symbols used.

Best wishes,
Eric

  

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danielkSun May-13-12 08:33 PM
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#46593, "RE: The Putti Figure"
In response to Reply # 11


          

All

This cherub/putti is most likely from the lower landing of the aft staircase (C Deck) and is therefore much smaller - it is only 18in tall.

The only two photos we have of Olympic's cherubs are from the upper landing of the staircase, directly under the dome. As such, there was plenty of space to make them larger.

It would appear that this design was carried down to the lower landings but due to the stairs overhead, a much smaller statue was used and apparently of a slightly different design.

I donít think H&W produced these in-house. The large candelabrum on D Deck was ordered from N. Burt & Co (Iím going by memory here) so if records still survive perhaps we can track these down as well. I wonder if these cherubs were ordered from N. Burt as well or another light fitting manufacturer.

Regards,

Daniel

  

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mauretania1906Sun May-13-12 09:20 PM
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#46596, "RE: The Putti Figure"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

>All
>
>This cherub/putti is most likely from the lower landing of the
>aft staircase (C Deck) and is therefore much smaller - it is
>only 18in tall.
>
>The only two photos we have of Olympic's cherubs are from the
>upper landing of the staircase, directly under the dome. As
>such, there was plenty of space to make them larger.
>
>It would appear that this design was carried down to the lower
>landings but due to the stairs overhead, a much smaller statue
>was used and apparently of a slightly different design.
>
>I donít think H&W produced these in-house. The large
>candelabrum on D Deck was ordered from N. Burt & Co (Iím going
>by memory here) so if records still survive perhaps we can
>track these down as well. I wonder if these cherubs were
>ordered from N. Burt as well or another light fitting
>manufacturer.
>
>Regards,
>
>Daniel


Hello Daniel,

Yes, that is stated at the RMST site artifact blog or whatever it is called. I agree these figures would have been simply ordered like the light fixtures. An indicator of this might the apparently moveable arms which would accommodate any number of light fixtures or other. It is certain this is bronze? I am reminded of the Diana from Versailles that was spelter with bronze finish/patina.

Best wishes,
Eric

  

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Ralph CurrellSun May-13-12 09:43 PM
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#46598, "Possible ID in Olympic photo"
In response to Reply # 13


          

Hi all,

This is Olympic's forward main staircase at the Shelter Deck level. The image dates from 1933 and although the quality is not ideal it appears there are two light fixtures, one on each of the outside newel posts. It's hard to say for sure if these are our "putti" figures, but the height of the nearest seems approximately correct.

If this is the case, then there might have been quite a number of these little fellows used on the ship.



Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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mauretania1906Sun May-13-12 11:29 PM
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#46599, "RE: Possible ID in Olympic photo"
In response to Reply # 15
Mon May-14-12 01:19 AMby mauretania1906

  

          

>Hi all,
>
>This is Olympic's forward main staircase at the Shelter
>Deck level. The image dates from 1933 and although the
>quality is not ideal it appears there are two light fixtures,
>one on each of the outside newel posts. It's hard to say for
>sure if these are our "putti" figures, but the height of the
>nearest seems approximately correct.
>
>If this is the case, then there might have been quite a number
>of these little fellows used on the ship.
>
>
>
>Regards,
> Ralph


Dear Ralph,

That's a great photo, Ralph, and good eye. I just did a quick Photoshop comparison between the image you posted, a few different views grabbed from Flickr, and our little "putto" - seems a dead match.
Although very hard to see easily (it seems people might be "righting" the sculpture to allow for the contraposto pose and/or wings/fabric are obscuring the exact posture of the back), all body proportions appear to be exact in length and width. Even that bit of cloth seems to have an analogous feature on your photo, as does the other end of the draped fabric (possible wing). I might guess the holes were attachment points for more fabric; it seems this little being does not have to be winged by definition, although the same sort of "horn" light fixture seems probable and wings are perhaps likely.
The two images shown above from Olympic vary between themselves, even the bases appear different; if there are other putti of varying size there may be at least four or more variants. I will now be looking for additional angles of this recovered statue, although I think what I am seeing is pretty certain.
The symbolism is interesting too - but as this staircase was in the English Baroque/Louis XIV style cherubim and putti might be easily interchanged along with symbolism/meaning. The presence of God is far more likely than some symbolism that would "explain" why Jack and Rose meet there. That these sculptures are serving a function lends further credence to their identification as putti and not cherubim. The contraposto pose mentioned earlier places these easily in the period of Baroque art.
it does appear there is something on the middle bannister of mirrored shape.
I see a near profile photo at ET that is very useful - hopefully I can find more. I think this placement of a pair of putti is even more charming and pleasing than the single putto in the middle.

Best wishes,
Eric

  

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inactive user iconcharcor (SETUP_INACTIVE_USER_LABEL)Sun May-13-12 09:31 PM
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#46597, "RE: The Putti Figure"
In response to Reply # 12


          

Eric,
Thanks so much for chiming in!!!!
I had heard the term "putti angels", but thought everyone just called the statues on these ships cherubs. I looked it up,olism in art and design and apparently "putto"(singular)/"putti" (plural) are always male.

You are a wealth of encyclopedic knowledge, Sir!!! I too find the symbolism in art and design fascinating, and would LOVE to read more about it. I hope this prompts you to start right away on an article.

I really thought the idea of a statue on each landing had been dropped since no other statues were found, but it is still very much a possibility. Although, I still favor the idea of the forward statue facing port and the aft starboard.

I assumed the same as Jerry, that the wings were broken off. Does anyone have a photo of the back of the statue?
Charles

  

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mauretania1906Sun May-13-12 11:53 PM
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#46600, "RE: The Putti Figures"
In response to Reply # 14
Mon May-14-12 12:12 AMby mauretania1906

  

          

Dear Charles,

Goodness, thanks for the kind words! It is good to see your interest in symbolism. So much today is "symbolic" but it is a part of the craft that is over-used. In some films or paintings a sledgehammer is used when a feather would more than suffice. I noticed these differences since I first saw it but never got around to looking into it. I wish I could recall of this was on display in Atlantic City in 1998 or '99. There is a photo at ET that does show some of the back - drapery or wings I can't yet say.

Many thanks,
Eric

  

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CDMon May-14-12 06:48 AM
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#46601, "RE: The Putti Figures"
In response to Reply # 17


          

Wow, thanks for the responses, yes I've collected a lot of info already from google and a few people and have a lot of photos of the movie ones now in the USA museums... Fox still owns one, but I'm wondering if any other photos of Olympics existed apart from what's posted here. I believe the one recovered is a smaller cherub found on the under deck newel posts, the cherub at the top level banister just down from the clocks were much bigger and diffierent looking. The one in Belfast is laughable, they keep claiming they have researched and it's a complete replica, it's not, looks like a little old man!

I'll read through this in detail later tonight.

Also I heard a rumour that one of the Olympucs larger cherubs still existed in Sheffield in the 1970's, may have been in a Commutator magazine years ago, supposedly? I know the Candlelabra existed in the Thomas Ward offices there until 1980!

Anyone have that photo where you can see it in the mirror?

Thanks!

  

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Jerry VondelingMon May-14-12 01:24 PM
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#46607, "RE: The Putti Figures"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

I think it is draped,

Here's a similar image of it being displayed in the Melbourne museum in 2010:



Jerry

  

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agroppeMon May-14-12 09:08 PM
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#46617, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 4


          

I couldn't agree with you more, Jonathan!
And why did they even bother with the staircase? The dome is figured too far forward... the stairs are all wrong... I won't be going anytime soon. What a shame

  

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CDTue May-15-12 04:47 AM
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#46623, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 20


          

Hi folks, a note about the Belfast Staircase, it's totally inaccurate and if you google it you will see how badly done the newel posts are, the supposedly accurate carvings and they had to add in an extra landing due to health and safety....

But the finer detailing is terrible, they really messed this up.

Plus if anyone here is planning a trip, Beware! The staircase is off limits to paying customers and NOT part of the exhibition. You only get to see it if you part of a corporate or private function hiring the room for the day! I know I was there, turned away and a whole argument in the news here erupted so don't be fooled by the pictures you see... It's not accessible to normal paying visitors!

  

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mauretania1906Fri May-18-12 12:01 PM
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#46677, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

Hello,

I think you might see a paper about these little figures soon; not by me, but taking my research much further. I'll post a link when completed. From what I have seen it looks very good.

Best wishes,
Eric

  

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mauretania1906Sun Oct-14-12 01:11 PM
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#47806, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 22
Sun Oct-14-12 04:39 PMby mauretania1906

  

          

Hi All,

A PM I received this am prompted me to get my student to finish proofing his new putti article - I will link to it from here is just a few days. It is well researched, illustrated and an interesting read!

Best wishes,
Eric

  

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inactive user iconbigboatbill (SETUP_INACTIVE_USER_LABEL)Sun Oct-14-12 09:26 PM
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#47813, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 23


          

This article must really be good judging from your excitement about it Eric. I look forward to reading it.
When I saw the C deck photo, I too was sure it was the same as the one recovered from the debris field, but on closer inspection my hopes were dashed. The appear to be similar in size and stance, and have other similar attributes, but not a match.
Here are some screen grabs from a video showing a 360 view of the statue, maybe someone can see something that I'm missing.
Eric, maybe you can share your photoshop comparison.

I realize that some parts of the statue are missing, but the arm seems to be lower, and the lower part is unrecognizable.
Please share your thoughts.
Bill



Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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CDMon Oct-15-12 01:27 PM
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#47818, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 24


          

Does anyone here have any high resolution photos of the Staircase with the cherub they'd be willing to share with me?

I'm really only looking for the Cherub cropped at as high resolution as possible without up-scaling? I know some very high res files exist from glass negatives etc but I can't find any online?

If so please PM me?
Thanks

  

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jrayderThu Oct-18-12 08:22 PM
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#47836, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 25


          

Hello everyone.

At long last, here is my paper on the cherub/putto. While putti are mentioned and described, I have attempted to place these sculptures into the larger context of the staircase, with its larger symbolism, which ensconced it.

While Eric's observations served as a spring-board, this paper and the research are mine, for good or bad. Be easy guys, this is my first paper of this kind. I really hope you enjoy it. In the least, I hope it furthers the conversation about these sculptures and their meaning.

Here is the link to my paper:
http://edwardianliners.weebly.com/

Sincerely,
Joseph Rayder

  

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William W. YoungThu Oct-18-12 10:18 PM
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#47837, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 26


          

Joseph , I found your paper very interesting and readable. It flowed well and I believe you and Eric Longo have captured the ideas behind the design. I get upset when People take undue Artistic license when a true work of Art such as these famous staircases are ( Reproduced ). Hopefully this paper will help drive Home the importence of keeping things exact so that the History doesn't get bastardized in it's physical translation.
Sincerely, Bill Young

  

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jrayderFri Oct-19-12 04:29 PM
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#47842, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 27


          

Dear Mr. Young,

Thank you for your kind words. I am very glad that you enjoyed my paper. I have been working on it for a long time among many other things. It was a good opportunity for me to learn new things and and try to gain a new perspective in understanding. The "Artemis of Versailles", which was positioned in the Olympic and Titanic's lounge, was pointed out to me by Eric and was of interest to my research as described in the paper.

Do you know of any other place where this symbolism is discussed or described? Apart from Eric's pilaster paper and work, I have not found very much detailed information about these types of symbolism used on these great liners.

Cordially,
Joseph Rayder


  

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William W. YoungFri Oct-19-12 08:45 PM
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#47843, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 28


          

Joseph , I don't personally , however I would imagine that the designers drew their information from a non maritime resource as at that time they were trying to create a Ships interrior that would wow the Public and create interest in the Wealthy travelling on their Liners. My hunch is that the main reason they used those themes and symbols was that they knew that the typical 1st. Class Passenger they were seeking was classicaly Educated and would appreciate the motief. I remember reading in one of the hundred or so Liner Books over 40 plus years that these ships were designed for sea sick American Ladies. And unless things have changed much in 100 Years. What Mama Bear wants in the Cave comes in the Cave and what Mama Bear dosen't want in the cave dosen't come in the Cave. In short most Men probably yielded to their Wives choice of what Liner to take when Business schedules were not a part of the equasion. So the more luxurious and inticing the interriors were the better. The Engineering etc. probably most could have cared less about.
Bill Young

  

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CDTue Oct-23-12 08:39 AM
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#47868, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 26


          

>Hello everyone.
>
>At long last, here is my paper on the cherub/putto. While
>putti are mentioned and described, I have attempted to place
>these sculptures into the larger context of the staircase,
>with its larger symbolism, which ensconced it.
>
>While Eric's observations served as a spring-board, this paper
>and the research are mine, for good or bad. Be easy guys, this
>is my first paper of this kind. I really hope you enjoy it. In
>the least, I hope it furthers the conversation about these
>sculptures and their meaning.
>
>Here is the link to my paper:
>http://edwardianliners.weebly.com/
>
>Sincerely,
>Joseph Rayder
>
>

Very interesting thanks! Does anyone know who made, cast or sculpted the Cherubs (Putus')? Do any information like this exist regarding them?

  

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mauretania1906Tue Oct-23-12 09:44 PM
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#47875, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 30
Tue Oct-23-12 09:46 PMby mauretania1906

  

          

Hello CD/JP,

As has been noted in the posts above, it is quite possible/perhaps probable these figures were ordered from a stock catalog of hotel fixtures or the like, as other fixtures on these ships were. The rotating arms suggest a non-dedicated item.
The Diana of Versailles, mentioned in Joseph's paper, was just patinated or painted/faux finished spelter - cheap base metal - and likely ordered from some catalog as well. We know light fixtures for some of these vessels were ordered from catalogs of stock items and/or hotel suppliers. One is listed in this thread.
I am glad Joseph took these ideas further regarding the potential meaning of the putto symbolism with regard to their location on the staircases. The Mauretania's Lounge was equally rich if not more so - just studded with symbolism.


Best wishes,
Eric

  

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CDSat Nov-24-12 10:31 AM
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#48130, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 31
Sat Nov-24-12 10:34 AMby CD

          

I don't suppose anyone here has measurements of the Newel Post from the bottom of the staircase at the White Swan hotel by any chance?



Thanks



Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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cryptic03Tue Mar-12-13 08:24 AM
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#48810, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 26


          

Joseph, I found your article fascinating. I've been reading up on the symbolism present in the staircases too, even used some of what I had learnt to write an essay for my architecture course at uni.

One thing I have to say that annoys me is when people refer to the "acorns" as "pineapples" stating that they symbolise hospitality when it is plainly obvious that this is not even remotely in sync with the theme present in the rest of the symbolism on the staircase. I have to admit though, I'm also of a different opinion to you on what these ornamental pieces are supposed to be. When researching for my essay I had come to the conclusion that these are pinecones, symbolising fertility, longevity and eternal life which very much keeps to the theme of the rest of the staircase. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean to challenge your article, I’m just sharing the conclusion my own research yielded and in all honesty would love to hear back from you concerning this.
There is also another aspect to the symbolic nature of the staircase that was not mentioned in your article. The light that the putti hold I think are actually cornucopia, which is symbolic of abundance, prosperity, nourishment and wealth. I know that unlike most cornucopia they are not overflowing with food and money but perhaps the symbolism here lies more in what the light itself represents? Seeing as the glass of the light itself is shaped like a flame it could represent life? Perhaps even eternal life? This is only speculation now, I’d have to do some research.

I’m more than happy for anyone to chime in here and correct me if I’m wrong and/or offer their opinion on that in which I am discussing.

  

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William W. YoungWed Mar-13-13 08:00 PM
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#48829, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 33


          

Very interesting . I always thought those were Artichokes. Seriously.
Sincerely , Bill Young

William W. Young

  

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jrayderThu Mar-14-13 08:40 AM
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#48832, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 34


          

Hello Mr. Young, Cryptic03 and All.

Thanks for your posts. I am glad you enjoyed my work Cryptic. After spending more time looking at various newel post finials I would agree with Mr. Young that those are indeed artichokes. It never entered my mind as usually acorns or pineapples seem to be the first choice, and when I did my research I concluded, erroneously, that it was an acorn.

I spent my time deciphering the intricacies of the various meanings and interpretations of all of these items in relation to one another; a fairly complex endeavor. I will go back and look further into the cornucopia observation for additional meaning(s)- although in my notes, this portion of the symbolic statement got shuffled away.

Many thanks for the keen observations and again, I am pleased you enjoyed my article.

Joseph Bernard Rayder

  

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William W. YoungSat Mar-16-13 11:26 AM
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#48863, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 35


          

Thank you Joseph. In addendum , the reason the Artichoke made most sense to me other than the visual identity was that the Artichoke is a food most associated with a wealthier Menu and would look in place in a First Class Venue.
Sincerely , Bill Young

William W. Young

  

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Thomas CrosFri Jul-04-14 11:21 PM
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#51001, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 36
Fri Jul-04-14 11:25 PMby Thomas Cros

          

Good afternoon. Prompt please how the firm which has made Grand Staircase RMS Titanic referred to? This firm now exists? Prompt please how the firm which has made beaded chandeliers referred to? Thanks. Regards Thomas




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Thomas CrosFri Jul-04-14 11:24 PM
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#51002, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 37
Fri Jul-04-14 11:24 PMby Thomas Cros

          



Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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ElnarSat Jul-05-14 10:07 AM
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#51005, "RE: The Cherubs - Titanic / Olympic / Britannic ?"
In response to Reply # 37


          

>Good afternoon. Prompt please how the firm which has made
>Grand Staircase RMS Titanic referred to? This firm now exists?

Perry & Co. New Bond Street, London. Existed till 1930.

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/forums/fixtures-fittings/4984-first-class-light-fixtures.html

Best regards
Lajos

  

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Titanic artwork at top of page is owned and copyright of Stuart Williamson and is used with permission.