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Subject: "Vertical sliding Watertight Door system" Previous topic | Next topic
Axim de RymeThu May-23-13 05:22 PM
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#49209, "Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"


  

          

Hi all! I need help about this:
I know how work this door -in general terms-, but i need to know "how" works the bellcrank with the friction multidisc (donīt have a clear photo or diagram) for built two to my Boiler Room dioram.

all help is welcome.
Many thanks and sorry for spelling mistakes

Axim

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, b-rad, Feb 17th 2017, #1
RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, Bill West, Feb 18th 2017, #2
      RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, Ralph Currell, Feb 18th 2017, #3
      RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, Bill West, Feb 19th 2017, #4
      RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, Ralph Currell, Feb 19th 2017, #5
      RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, Scott Andrews, Feb 19th 2017, #6
           RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, Ralph Currell, Feb 20th 2017, #7
                RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, Axim de Ryme, Feb 20th 2017, #8
                RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, Ralph Currell, Feb 20th 2017, #10
                RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, Scott Andrews, Feb 20th 2017, #9
                     RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, Ralph Currell, Feb 20th 2017, #11
                          RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, Bill West, Feb 21st 2017, #14
      RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, SteveFury, Feb 21st 2017, #12
           RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, Bill West, Feb 21st 2017, #13
                RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, Scott Andrews, Feb 21st 2017, #15
                     RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, Ralph Currell, Feb 23rd 2017, #16
                          RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, b-rad, Mar 07th 2017, #17
                               RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, Ralph Currell, Mar 08th 2017, #18
                                    RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system, b-rad, Jul 07th 2017, #19

b-radFri Feb-17-17 01:40 PM
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#54669, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Feb-18-17 02:26 PMby b-rad

          

Presented are 4 pictures of Olympic's watertight doors. The left and upper left are of the same door, one open one closed, with two pistons (green) connected to the upper T bar of the door. The other two pictures are of the same door also (one opened, one closed). Not seen is how the single piston (green) connected to the door at its center, as this would be where the center pinion was located. So how did it connect? Also on this smaller door is a rod (red) that runs horizontally across it. What is this for?

Thanks

Brad Payne

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Bill WestSat Feb-18-17 02:47 PM
Member since Feb 02nd 2010
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#54672, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 1


          

TTSM pg.113 is the best picture of H&W's WT door mechanism. That's the picture with a man in it. The description is already very good.

Door movement:
Let's call the shaft with the gear above the center of the door the main shaft.
That gear is fixed on the shaft. The shaft can move left-right by a small amount.
The worm gear at the side of the door frame is free to spin on the main shaft.
That gear would have a bearing surface on its left side.
The main shaft has a head like a nail to the right of the worm gear.
A friction material (B) would be placed between the main shaft head and the worm gear.
The weight arm (C) pivots on a rod in the casting next to the head of the main shaft.
Beneath that pivot rod is a bolt tip that pushes on the main shaft head pressing it against the friction material and the worm gear.

So when the weight presses down, the main shaft is clamped to and obeys the worm gear, stopping or moving with it.
When the weight is up, the main shaft is free to let the door fall by gravity.

The friction area could actually be built of several layers like a multi disk automotive clutch.
Maybe the main shaft doesn't slide sideways, the head could be a splined casting that slides on it.
As the Stone hydraulic door system became more popular there is probably not much in the period texts. A patent search might lead to better details.

In the final assembly the two gears and the friction area are covered.

Control:
A small vertical rod (E) runs down from the large magnet box (A) at the top to the float at the bottom.
The magnet is wired by thin conduit mounted on posts above it (pg.112 left). The magnet is energized to lift the control rod and thus the weight. Nowadays that would not be considered fail safe.
A hand release lever (D) on the bulkhead can also lift the control rod.
At the bottom the float sits in an enclosure. When the float lifts it works through a lever on a bracket to lift the control rod. The lever and bracket show in this picture.

For opening the door the vertical shaft (G) through the worm gear can be cranked by a bevel gear (F) at the bottom. The L shaped gear handle is hanging on the bulkhead. The shaft can also be cranked from an upper deck. These routes can also be used for slow or remote closing of the door.

Cataracts* (old name for a flow slowing passageway):
The two hydraulic style cylinders above the door have a closed fluid circuit. The small pipes at the side only allow fluid to move from beneath the pistons to above them at a rate slow enough to give a controlled descent of the door. When the pistons pass the extra pipe connections 2/3's of the way down more fluid can pass into the upper part of the cylinder and the descent rate becomes quick enough to let the door slam home.

Bill

*I think cataract is an alternative to the word rapids as in river rapids. Much as we think of them as being fast water the rocky, restrictive bottom makes them slower than a smooth bottomed passageway making the same descent. Hence the period use of the word here for a slowing mechanism. In my time the word dashpot was used for this sort of mechanism.

  

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Ralph CurrellSat Feb-18-17 10:24 PM
Member since Mar 31st 2007
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#54673, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 2


          

In addition to the excellent descriptions given above, a patent document describing a similar door can be found at https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19141106&DB=en.worldwide.espacenet.com&CC=GB&NR=191325407A#

This is the illustration from that document:

It seems to be identical to the door shown in 'Titanic: The Ship Magnificent' with the exception that the cataract cylinders are fixed to the door, and the piston rods fixed to the bulkhead rather than the other way around. Perhaps this arrangement was used where vertical space was limited.

Regards,
Ralph

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Bill WestSun Feb-19-17 12:17 AM
Member since Feb 02nd 2010
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#54674, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 3


          

Excellent Ralph, I think you've given Axim enough information to go into business manufacturing these!

Bill
PS it looks like the clutch is the cone type with the cone casting keyed and sliding on the mainshaft.

  

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Ralph CurrellSun Feb-19-17 09:13 AM
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#54675, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 4


          

Thanks Bill.

One small detail not mentioned in TTSM are the holes in the float ('z' on the patent drawing). In the event of flooding, these holes would allow the float to fill and sink after the door had closed, re-engaging the clutch and allowing the use of the hand crank.

Brad, that small rod you cirlcled in red does not seem to be present on the patent drawing. I think it may be simply a support for the pinion gear cover, and not related to the operation of the door.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Scott AndrewsSun Feb-19-17 11:18 PM
Member since Sep 18th 2004
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#54677, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

This was an "improvement" in the original design, if that it added more weight to the door while lowering the overall height of the entire mechanism. The designer go the bright idea of making the piston and rod stationary, instead of the cylinder. Had this design been used on the Olympic-class, there would have been no need for the overhead recess which ran to the underside of G-Deck, need to house the two hydraulic cylinders ("cataracts") which regulated the closing of these doors. Of course, the ultimate improvement was the electric motor-driven version of these doors, first installed aboard RMS Arundel Castle H&W No.455, and then quietly retrofitted post war into the Olympic. (Personally, I believe that these retrofits were recognition by H&W that, in certain circumstances such as severe a racking motion to the hull -- i.e. Britannic -- there was the possibility of the doors being rendered inoperative by gravity alone.)

Regards,
Scott Andrews
TRMA Trustee

  

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Ralph CurrellMon Feb-20-17 09:09 AM
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#54678, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 6


          

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the additional info. Is it possible the arrangement shown in the patent (cylinders fixed to the door) was used on Olympic and Titanic for the two WT doors at the aft end of the ship? There does not seem to be a great deal of vertical clearance at bulkheads "N" and "O".

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Axim de RymeMon Feb-20-17 04:14 PM
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#54679, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

Hi all!
Thank you so very much to all for your support. The dioram was finished on 2014. Some pics of the doors and dioram. Hope enjoy

Best Regards
Axim

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)
Attachment #3, (jpg file)
Attachment #4, (jpg file)

  

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Ralph CurrellMon Feb-20-17 10:00 PM
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#54682, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 8


          

Hi Axim,

Sorry, I didn't notice the date on your original message. I thought maybe you were starting on a new project.

Anyway, the information may be useful to others. And it's always a pleasure to see the photos of your boiler room model.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Scott AndrewsMon Feb-20-17 07:34 PM
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#54680, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

Ralph,

My mistake -- the recess for that one door forward rose only to the underside of the Orlop Deck, and not one deck higher to the underside of the Lower Deck (G). Looking at the inboard profile, when comparing the height available in this area forward to the heights available to the undersides of the Orlop Deck Aft at WTB N, and the Tunnel Deck at WTB O, there seems to be enough space to accommodate the regulating cylinder of these doors. An actual dimensioned drawing of one of these doors complete would help answer the question with more certainty!

Regards,
Scott Andrews
TRMA Trustee

  

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Ralph CurrellMon Feb-20-17 10:17 PM
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#54683, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 9


          

Hi Scott,

I don't have precise dimensions, but using the WTB "N" plan from TTSM I did up a rough drawing with the patent drawing alongside.



The door-mounted cylinder arrangement fits fine, but there doesn't seem to be room for bulkhead-mounted cylinders unless they protrude through the Orlop deck. It's not a particularly important point; just something I wondered about while figuring how the doors worked.

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Bill WestTue Feb-21-17 01:29 PM
Member since Feb 02nd 2010
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#54687, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 11


          

I see at least 3 ways to fix this:
-two cylinders, one at each side of the door and a cross bar between them at the top of the door. Notch it to clear the door frame and release mechanism.
-one cylinder beside the door and a lever from a pivot beyond it, across the piston rod and reaching the top center of the door.
-hang the cylinder from the ceiling or a wall bracket so that there is space between it and the wall for the door to rise. A bracket at the bottom of the door would connect to the bottom of the piston rod.

Then we could consider cable and pulley methods.

Bill

  

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SteveFuryTue Feb-21-17 06:25 AM
Member since Feb 20th 2017
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#54684, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 2
Tue Feb-21-17 06:28 AMby SteveFury

          

>TTSM pg.113 is the best picture of H&W's WT door mechanism.
>That's the picture with a man in it. The description is
>already very good.
>
>Door movement:
>Let's call the shaft with the gear above the center of the
>door the main shaft.
>That gear is fixed on the shaft. The shaft can move left-right
>by a small amount.
>The worm gear at the side of the door frame is free to spin on
>the main shaft.
>That gear would have a bearing surface on its left side.
>The main shaft has a head like a nail to the right of the worm
>gear.
>A friction material (B) would be placed between the main shaft
>head and the worm gear.
>The weight arm (C) pivots on a rod in the casting next to the
>head of the main shaft.
>Beneath that pivot rod is a bolt tip that pushes on the main
>shaft head pressing it against the friction material and the
>worm gear.
>
>So when the weight presses down, the main shaft is clamped to
>and obeys the worm gear, stopping or moving with it.
>When the weight is up, the main shaft is free to let the door
>fall by gravity.
>
>The friction area could actually be built of several layers
>like a multi disk automotive clutch.
>Maybe the main shaft doesn't slide sideways, the head could be
>a splined casting that slides on it.
>As the Stone hydraulic door system became more popular there
>is probably not much in the period texts. A patent search
>might lead to better details.
>
>In the final assembly the two gears and the friction area are
>covered.
>
>Control:
>A small vertical rod (E) runs down from the large magnet box
> A) at the top to the float at the bottom.
>The magnet is wired by thin conduit mounted on posts above it
> pg.112 left). The magnet is energized to lift the control rod
>and thus the weight. Nowadays that would not be considered
>fail safe.
>A hand release lever (D) on the bulkhead can also lift the
>control rod.
>At the bottom the float sits in an enclosure. When the float
>lifts it works through a lever on a bracket to lift the
>control rod. The lever and bracket show in this picture.
>
>For opening the door the vertical shaft (G) through the worm
>gear can be cranked by a bevel gear (F) at the bottom. The L
>shaped gear handle is hanging on the bulkhead. The shaft can
>also be cranked from an upper deck. These routes can also be
>used for slow or remote closing of the door.
>
>Cataracts* (old name for a flow slowing passageway):
>The two hydraulic style cylinders above the door have a closed
>fluid circuit. The small pipes at the side only allow fluid to
>move from beneath the pistons to above them at a rate slow
>enough to give a controlled descent of the door. When the
>pistons pass the extra pipe connections 2/3's of the way down
>more fluid can pass into the upper part of the cylinder and
>the descent rate becomes quick enough to let the door slam
>home.
>
>Bill
>
>*I think cataract is an alternative to the word rapids as in
>river rapids. Much as we think of them as being fast water the
>rocky, restrictive bottom makes them slower than a smooth
>bottomed passageway making the same descent. Hence the period
>use of the word here for a slowing mechanism. In my time the
>word dashpot was used for this sort of mechanism.


If I understand correctly, the release mechanism which consists of the solenoid magnet, the manual release lever and float did not latch to allow the door to complete its slow decent?
I mean to say... The current switched on at the bridge had to keep the magnet on at least until the door dropped? It seems a better way would have been that a single pulse to the magnet would trip the mechanism to drop the door.

It looks like the manual lever also needed to be held upward for the duration of the door travel until it slammed shut. If the manual release handle was let go half way down then the door would stop half way down.
Right?

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestTue Feb-21-17 01:27 PM
Member since Feb 02nd 2010
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#54686, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 12


          

All true. They had just arrived at having the doors as a safety device at all. Developing safety features for the safety feature wouldn't come for a while. It's after you get the basic idea working at all and then get some experience with it that you start to discover better details. Unfortunately that then starts defeating the "keep it simple" theory.

Bill

  

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Scott AndrewsTue Feb-21-17 04:44 PM
Member since Sep 18th 2004
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#54688, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

By approximately 1898 - 1900, when I can first account for H&W employing the solenoid-activated release, this was all considered pretty high-tech, whiz-bang, stuff. The first use of the H&W's vertical sliding doors, complete with the float and hydraulic descent regulation, was aboard the Teutonic and Majestic of 1889-1890. As with all of the versions of these doors that followed, they could be operated from the bridge -- BUT -- the release mechanism was a mechanical trip lever operated by a system of wire rope cables and pulleys, much like the methods employed in rigging the engine order, docking and steering telegraphs! Now, how's that for high-tech!

Regards,
Scott Andrews
TRMA Trustee

  

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Ralph CurrellThu Feb-23-17 08:41 AM
Member since Mar 31st 2007
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#54695, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 15


          

Anybody interested in watertight doors at the end of the 19th century should look up the paper by B. Martell in the Institution of Naval Architects 'Transactions' volume 38 (1897). There are diagrams of 25 or so different designs, some of them rather unusual. Hydraulic power is used for many of them but electricity seems to be totally absent.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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b-radTue Mar-07-17 08:44 PM
Member since Aug 30th 2015
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#54745, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 16
Wed Mar-08-17 12:39 AMby b-rad

          

If the magnetic solenoid was to merely lift the weighted bell crank in order to release the clutch and thus the pressure put on the friction disks, than how did it prevent the reopening of the doors, as they could not be reopened until after the bridge turned 'off' the electric charge? There was no brake system, as far as I'm aware of, connected to the solenoid. To the extent of my knowledge the solenoid did not have anything to do with the door itself, and only in the operation of releasing the clutch. Perhaps they would not have remained opened (aka they'd keep falling down) if lifted until the clutch was reengaged- which could only be done if the solenoid was turned off. Could this be what the instructions on the bridge next to the WTD controls have meant?


I edited this post, for after reading it awhile after posting, I did not think it was clear enough. Hope it is now.

Brad Payne

  

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Ralph CurrellWed Mar-08-17 08:22 AM
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#54749, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 17


          

Hi Brad,

I think you have the correct idea of the operation. Once the switch on the bridge was operated, the doors could not be re-opened until the switch was turned off, or the electrical power to the solenoid failed.

If the switch was turned off while the door was descending, I assume it would simply stop in the partly closed position, but there was no way for a man at the door to stop it closing (apart from placing a physical obstruction).

Regards,
Ralph

  

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b-radFri Jul-07-17 11:05 AM
Member since Aug 30th 2015
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#55311, "RE: Vertical sliding Watertight Door system"
In response to Reply # 18


          

In case anyone here hasn't seen it, I recently published an article on encyclopedia-titanica.org about Titanic's watertight doors. The link is https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/an-analysis-of-titanics-vertical-and-lateral-watertight-doors-20167.html .

As further proof of the appendix in this article I present the following information in post #15 on https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/community/threads/watertight-doors.36636/#post-388216

I would post the further proof here, but it is not allowing me to post pictures right now.

Please enjoy, and feel free to comment!

Brad Payne

  

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