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Subject: "Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room" Previous topic | Next topic
bpreadWed Apr-09-14 10:25 AM
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#50386, "Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"


          

This is an extension of the discussion that we had earlier about the windows in Titanic's chart room and pilot's room. In that discussion we determined that the windows which are visible in the bridge area of the wreck are on the bulkhead forming the forward boundary of the fan and vent trunks. The fan trunk is the large duct which the stokehold vent sits atop. The vent trunks are the trunks which are outboard the fan trunk.
One aspect of the discussion we did not cover is the number of these windows. In the photo below we can easily identify 3 windows. There has been some speculation that there might be a fourth window in the pilot's room area.


In order to analyze whether this is possible we have to look at the underlying framing of the bulkhead on which the windows are framed. If we look at the next photo we see a photo of Olympic fitting out. We know the width of the bulkhead forward of the trunks is 20 ft. wide. In the photo on the right I have drawn in red where the frames are located. From the number of frames we know that the framing here is on 2 ft. centers.


In the drawing below I have drawn the bulkhead forward of the trunks.


The boundaries in each room of where the windows could be located are the centerline frame inboard and the extent of the fan trunk outboard (blue dashed line). These windows could only be located in the fan trunk because they were glazed so as to admit light from the opening of the stokehold vent above. As can be seen there are only three interframe locations in which windows could be placed in either room. From wreck photos we can see that the inboard window in the chart room abuts the centerline. The outboard window in the chart room abuts the outboard extent of the fan trunk. In the previous photo we saw that the window numbered "3" in the chart room is spaced equidistant from the inboard chart room window. This placement puts it in the the middle interframe space of the three interframe spaces of the pilot's room. For there to be a fourth window which would be within the pilot's room it would have to be placed outside the boundaries of the fan trunk. In that location it would be over the vent trunk where there would be no possibility of light being available for the window.
In conclusion, a framing analysis shows that there could only be the three windows on the bulkhead forming the aft bulkhead of the chart room and pilot's room. Two would be within the chart room and one within the pilot's room.
Regards,
Bob Read
TRMA trustee







Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)
Attachment #3, (jpg file)

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, Jason King, Apr 09th 2014, #1
RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, bpread, Apr 09th 2014, #2
      RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, Ralph Currell, Apr 09th 2014, #3
           RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, bpread, Apr 09th 2014, #4
                RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, Ralph Currell, Apr 09th 2014, #5
                     RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, Deep Quest, Apr 09th 2014, #6
                          RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, Deep Quest, Apr 09th 2014, #7
                               Video, bpread, Apr 09th 2014, #8
                                    RE: Video screen captures, Deep Quest, Apr 09th 2014, #9
                                         RE: Video screen captures, Ralph Currell, Apr 09th 2014, #10
                                              RE: Video screen captures, bpread, Apr 09th 2014, #11
                                                   RE: Video screen captures, Roy Mengot, Apr 09th 2014, #12
                                                        RE: Video screen captures, Deep Quest, Apr 10th 2014, #13
RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, Roy Mengot, Apr 12th 2014, #14
RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, bpread, Apr 13th 2014, #15
RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, Roy Mengot, Apr 13th 2014, #17
      RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, Scott Andrews, Apr 13th 2014, #18
RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, Ralph Currell, Apr 13th 2014, #16
      RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, Roy Mengot, Apr 13th 2014, #19
           RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, Cyril.Codus, Nov 03rd 2017, #20
                RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, Ralph Currell, Nov 03rd 2017, #21
                     RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, Cyril.Codus, Nov 04th 2017, #22
                          RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, Ralph Currell, Nov 04th 2017, #23
                               RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, bpread, Nov 04th 2017, #24
                                    RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room, Ralph Currell, Nov 04th 2017, #25

Jason KingWed Apr-09-14 11:46 AM
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#50387, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Very interesting Bob. It also appears the windows were convenient for the placing of the table in the GA plan to allow additional light when viewing charts and maps etc.

Jason

Jaborg 666.

  

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bpreadWed Apr-09-14 12:26 PM
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#50388, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Thanks Jason. In addition you have an overhead skylight which is centered between these two windows. So while the chartroom had electrical lighting, they also made back-up provisions for natural light.

Regards,
Bob Read
TRMA trustee

  

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Ralph CurrellWed Apr-09-14 12:55 PM
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#50389, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 2


          

Hi Bob,

Excellent analysis!

I'd be interested to see footage from the wreck that shows clearly whether or not there was a fourth opening (the image you posted shows a dark patch about where we'd expect to see an additional opening.) Such an opening, of course, would not be used for lighting since it would connect to the ventilator trunk.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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bpreadWed Apr-09-14 01:21 PM
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#50390, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 3


          

Hi Ralph:
Thanks. The overhanging structure in the first photo prevents any clear view. I think some are trying to interpret shadows as a fourth window. In the absence of better footage I wanted to analyze whether a fourth window was feasible. My conclusion is that it would not be if the purpose of the window to admit both light and air is to be served. That fourth window would have to be in the vent trunk where there was no light. A clear photo of a fourth window would nullify my theory but then we would have to rethink the purpose of the windows. If they were merely ventilating panels with no glazing then it would be theoretically feasible to put one in that starboard vent trunk because it was a fresh air supply trunk. At this point I would lean against it. I would think that since this single window served the pilot's cabin, I'm not sure it would have been used for any extended periods.

Regards,
Bob Read

  

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Ralph CurrellWed Apr-09-14 01:37 PM
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#50392, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 4


          

Hi Bob,

Yes, agreed on all points. I'm just saying that the light & air function of these openings is still theoretical (though I like the theory) and any further information would help.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Deep QuestWed Apr-09-14 01:57 PM
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#50393, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 5
Sun Apr-27-14 04:41 PMby Deep Quest

          

Hi all,

This is what that I found on internet.
This video has been taken with submersible Jake from Mir 1 (expedition 2001):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OplGRJTephg

Look from 4:40 for Chart and Pilot Rooms Area.
The quality is not the best but I hope this may be helpful

Best regards

Livio

PS: (in this video is visible a close view of the “mystery box”):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuRwRFTKoKk (at 3:25)

  

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Deep QuestWed Apr-09-14 02:14 PM
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#50394, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 6


          

Hi,

Here same area from "Ghosts Of The Abyss:

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db4aKRxFu_k

look at 20:14 and 20:52

(19:43 on DVD)

Livio

  

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bpreadWed Apr-09-14 02:35 PM
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#50395, "Video"
In response to Reply # 7


          

In Livio's first video at 6:09 you can clearly see windows 1 & 2 which I identified in the photo I posted. At 6:13 you get a glint of light from window #3 coming from the darkness but that's all. I was unable to view the second video because it said it was unavailable in my country (U.S.). Livio can you post a couple of screen captures from the times you indicate?
That overhang on the starboard side makes the area under it in deep shadow. Only if the camera were low and had a bright light source could we see what is or is not under there.

Regards,
Bob Read
TRMA trustee

  

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Deep QuestWed Apr-09-14 03:07 PM
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#50396, "RE: Video screen captures"
In response to Reply # 8


          

Hi Bob,

Here some screen captures.

A similiar view is available from book "Titanic Ghosts of the Abyss" (Mireille Majoor), p.26 but a 3-D mask is required (for the entire book).

Many thanks for your information about this wreck area.

Kind regards,

Livio

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)
Attachment #3, (jpg file)
Attachment #4, (jpg file)
Attachment #5, (jpg file)

  

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Ralph CurrellWed Apr-09-14 03:40 PM
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#50398, "RE: Video screen captures"
In response to Reply # 9


          

Thanks for those captures Livio.

It's pretty clear there is no fourth opening, so evidence for the window explanation (as opposed to something else like an access panel)would seem to be strengthened.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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bpreadWed Apr-09-14 04:44 PM
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#50399, "RE: Video screen captures"
In response to Reply # 10


          

Thanks Livio. The fourth and fifth captures are the real money shots.

Regards
Bob Read
TRMA trustee

  

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Roy MengotWed Apr-09-14 11:11 PM
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#50401, "RE: Video screen captures"
In response to Reply # 11


          

That's interesting to me. I also noticed the starboard well deck crane is not still on the crane rack. The boom is down on the winches. When was that video made?

Regards
Roy Mengot
TRMA Trustee

  

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Deep QuestThu Apr-10-14 04:36 AM
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#50404, "RE: Video screen captures"
In response to Reply # 12


          

Hi Roy,

All videos were made in September 2001.

Screen captures are taken from DVD "Ghosts of the Abyss".

Best regards

Livio

  

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Roy MengotSat Apr-12-14 09:02 PM
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#50423, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I'm working that very piece on a wreck model right now. Here's a 2004 photo of that area. My guess is those are not window panels for a little indirect lighting, but rather access panels for perhaps plumbing cutoffs or something. Tom Andrew's note book doesn't say anything about them. There's heavily rusted stuff in the shaft that would have blocked a lot of the light.





I think Bob's frame analysis is right, but I question "windows".

Regards
Roy Mengot
TRMA Trustee

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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bpreadSun Apr-13-14 08:19 AM
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#50425, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 14


          

Hi Roy:
If you need service access to this fan trunk, why do you need 3 openings?

Regards,
Bob Read
TRMA trustee

  

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Roy MengotSun Apr-13-14 04:18 PM
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#50427, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 15


          

I think those are service access to separate sub-sustems. Perhaps different types of water to different decks. E.g. the plumber needs to cut salt water to B-deck or freshwater to A-deck. There are pipes in the web frames of funnel 1 that you don't see in funnel 2. Maybe those are electrical conduits for the ship's clock or telephone lines.

Maybe the crew will have access to one or more or not. Maybe the installers need those control points and then close them up. I don't know. Service test points. I'd like to see a better photo of the inside of that stock hold shaft.

It just seems to me that after the vent grill and whatever those 3 pipe things are (that are so heavily rusted today)you won't get enough usable light reflected from the vent shaft to make it worth the trouble of putting in a window for light. You have a deadlight overhead. My thoughts.

Regards
Roy Mengot
TRMA Trustee

  

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Scott AndrewsSun Apr-13-14 04:52 PM
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#50428, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

After looking at both Bruce's G/A the digital photos of the H&W 401 plumbing plan, I honestly don't know what they could hope to gain from access to via those boiler room fan trunks at the Boat deck level other than light from above, and ventilation to those to compartments via air being drawn in through the door louvers by the suction being created by the negative pressure within the BR fan trunk. The majority of the vertical fresh and salt water supply and return lines and a number of the hot water supply tanks are all located within the fidley trunks, with others lines running up inside the engine casings. At none of these drawings shows anything within the fan trunks -- not a positive proof of the complete absence of piping or electrical runs within these spaces, but telling none the less. The fidleys were the idea location for such systems. They were chock full of ladders and platforms providing easy repair access from within for all of this stuff, while also providing a direct, if arduous means of emergency escape from the boiler rooms straight up to the Boat Deck.

Regards,
Scott Andrews
TRMA Trustee

  

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Ralph CurrellSun Apr-13-14 04:13 PM
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#50426, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 14


          

Hi Roy,

That's a great image. Seeing how close the openings are to the trunk inlet, I think they would work well as windows.

Do you know if there are any shots looking straight down into the fan trunk? It would be interesting to know of the presence (or absence) of pipes or other equipment adjacent to the openings.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Roy MengotSun Apr-13-14 06:44 PM
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#50429, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 16


          

Scott's perfectly right about the Fidleys being the place to put that stuff. So what's clogging those 'windows'? I'm going to try some other avenues but I, too, would dearly like a good view of the inside wall of that vent shaft. Louvers? I wouldn't put huge louvers right over the chart table. I'm still doubtful about windows for lights.

Regards
Roy Mengot
TRMA Trustee

  

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Cyril.CodusFri Nov-03-17 05:58 AM
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#55631, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 19
Fri Nov-03-17 06:15 AMby Cyril.Codus

  

          

Hi all,

I know it's an old thread but I had access to a plan showing the 2 windows, it's the Olympic plan but there is a similarity to the location of the 3 windows on the Titanic wreck, they don't are really centered in the same place on each side.


URL=]

Best TRMA....

Kind Regards.

  

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Ralph CurrellFri Nov-03-17 02:21 PM
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#55632, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 20


          

Hi Cyril,

Thanks for that. Do you have any idea what is written in the notes beside the openings?

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Cyril.CodusSat Nov-04-17 05:18 PM
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#55635, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

Hi Ralph, I can not read exactly what is written but I can see "ventilation, glasses and brass".


Best TRMA....

Kind Regards.

  

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Ralph CurrellSat Nov-04-17 06:28 PM
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#55637, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 22


          

Hi Cyril,

Thanks, that's a bit better. The text is still difficult, but I'm going to take a guess that it reads, "VENTILATING WINDOW WITH OBSCURE GLASS".

'Obscure glass' perhaps being the same sort of glass we see on the gymnasium windows.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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bpreadSat Nov-04-17 06:34 PM
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#55638, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 23


          

Merriam Webster defines it as translucent glass. It is a generic term. The gymnasium windows were a particular type known as Flemish glass.

  

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Ralph CurrellSat Nov-04-17 08:00 PM
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#55639, "RE: Number of windows in Chart room and Pilot's room"
In response to Reply # 24


          

Hi Bob,

Thanks, that's a good point. In the Britannic specifications they differentiate between Flemish and obscure glass. I assume that obscure glass in this case is a bit more utilitarian (and less expensive).

Regards,
Ralph

  

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