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Subject: "Funnel Stays" Previous topic | Next topic
decoSat Feb-14-15 04:37 AM
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#52202, "Funnel Stays"
Sat Feb-14-15 04:56 AMby deco

          

Hi everyone!

I just received my copy of Titanic in Photographs and have been enjoying the beautiful quality prints. It's a great book and many thanks to all involved in its creation.

Now, to get to the point, I've always thought the popular consensus was that Olympic had both lower and upper funnel stays (cables holding the funnels up if my terminology is wrong) while Titanic had only the lower ones.

On page 128 of this book, and again on the huge double page photo on pages 130-131, I seem to see upper funnel stays. Yeah, I had to put my readers on, but am I imagining it or are these something else?

I've attached a photo - not sure how clear it will be but in the book they seem obvious especially fore and aft of #1 funnel and aft of #2 funnel.

~ Charley Smith ~

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Funnel Stays, bpread, Feb 14th 2015, #1
RE: Funnel Stays, deco, Feb 14th 2015, #2
      RE: Funnel Stays, Art Braunschweiger, Feb 14th 2015, #3
           RE: Funnel Stays, bpread, Feb 14th 2015, #4
           RE: Funnel Stays, Pepsi4815162342, May 09th 2015, #5
                Funnel internal structure, Ralph Currell, May 10th 2015, #6
                     RE: Funnel internal structure, mauretania1906, May 10th 2015, #7
                          RE: Funnel internal structure, Ralph Currell, May 11th 2015, #8
                               RE: Funnel internal structure, mauretania1906, May 11th 2015, #9
                                    RE: Funnel internal structure, Ralph Currell, May 12th 2015, #10
                                         RE: Funnel internal structure, mauretania1906, May 12th 2015, #11
                                              RE: Funnel internal structure, Ralph Currell, May 12th 2015, #12
           RE: Funnel Stays, Bill Baird, Jul 29th 2017, #13
                RE: Funnel Stays, Ralph Currell, Jul 30th 2017, #14
                     no message, bpread, Jul 31st 2017, #15
                     no message, bpread, Jul 31st 2017, #16
                     no message, bpread, Jul 31st 2017, #17
                     no message, bpread, Jul 31st 2017, #18
                     RE: Funnel Stays, bpread, Jul 31st 2017, #19
                          RE: Funnel Stays, Ralph Currell, Jul 31st 2017, #20

bpreadSat Feb-14-15 06:15 AM
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#52203, "RE: Funnel Stays"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Hi Charley
Titanic and Olympic only had funnel stays. What you are calling "upper funnel stays" are painters lines. They were used to hoist painters up the funnels to paint them. Both ships had funnel stays and painters lines.

Regards
Bob Read
TRMA trustee

  

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decoSat Feb-14-15 08:14 AM
Member since Apr 25th 2012
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#52204, "RE: Funnel Stays"
In response to Reply # 1
Sat Feb-14-15 08:17 AMby deco

          

I see - that would explain why, on Titanic, I can only discern one or two lines coming from the very top rim of each funnel. So neither ship actually had an upper row of support cables, they we're just ropes for the painters.

Makes perfect sense.

Thanks!


~ Charley Smith ~

  

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Art BraunschweigerSat Feb-14-15 10:10 AM
Member since Nov 21st 2004
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#52205, "RE: Funnel Stays"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

To be correct, the cables supporting the funnels were termed shrouds. Stays refer to cables that provide support in a fore-and-aft direction, whereas shrouds provide support laterally.

Art Braunschweiger
TRMA Trustee

  

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bpreadSat Feb-14-15 05:29 PM
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#52206, "RE: Funnel Stays"
In response to Reply # 3


          

Pardon my mistake. The funnel support lines are indeed shrouds as Art said.

Regards
Bob Resd
TRMA trustee

  

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Pepsi4815162342Sat May-09-15 12:51 PM
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#52777, "RE: Funnel Stays"
In response to Reply # 4


          

I thought you talked about Funnel inner Stays. I never saw any Plan or Picture of the Inner Casing of the Funnel itself. I've saw few Britannic Pictures of the Transport of a Funnel. But i cound't figure out how they was connected.

greeting

  

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Ralph CurrellSun May-10-15 09:52 AM
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#52784, "Funnel internal structure"
In response to Reply # 5


          

Hello. You may find you are more likely to get a response if you sign your name to your posts.

The inner and outer funnels were tied together by brackets called "distance pieces". These can be seen in the photograph at https://www.nmni.com/Home/Shop/Products/Photographs/Harland-and-Wolff-Collection-(Welch-Collection)/HOYFM-HW-H2416. Two of the distance pieces are visible where the funnel is resting on the truck; others are hidden by shadows.

Note that this photo is incorrectly captioned as being No.4 funnel. It is in fact one of the working funnels.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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mauretania1906Sun May-10-15 12:29 PM
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#52785, "RE: Funnel internal structure"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

Hello,

FWIW, I was looking at some high res photographs of Olympics first funnel and there at least two additional painters lines attached where buff meets black.

Eric

  

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Ralph CurrellMon May-11-15 09:19 AM
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#52797, "RE: Funnel internal structure"
In response to Reply # 7


          

Hi Eric,

Do you mean they were attached to the reinforcing band, the same as the funnel shrouds? Where were they located roughly (if we take forward as 12 o'clock and aft as 6 o'clock)?

Regards,
Ralph

  

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mauretania1906Mon May-11-15 05:21 PM
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#52798, "RE: Funnel internal structure"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

Hi Ralph,

Well, about 4:45. They are there, quite close to each other, starboard side, and very thin. The attach point is slightly above the buff/black border - I did not see that before. This scan is HUGE. The other two painters lines that reach the funnel top - port side is doubled as is starboard - 2 lines per side. These images are from 1912. I hope that is useful.

Best wishes,
Eric

  

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Ralph CurrellTue May-12-15 07:12 AM
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#52804, "RE: Funnel internal structure"
In response to Reply # 9


          

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the info. I can't see these on any photo I have, but they might be difficult to spot against the black-painted funnel top. Would you guess they were also present on the port side?

I realize it may not be possible for various reasons, but if you could post a cropped image showing the blocks it might shed some light on their purpose.

The only thing that comes to my mind is the topping lift for the sounding spars. You may recall that Bob Read did a research article on the Olympic-class sounding machine setup (http://www.titanic-cad-plans.com/olympic_bulwark.pdf?9d7bd4). One of his conclusions was that the topping lift line probably used one of the painter's blocks at the top of the funnel, but these new ones you mention might also fit the bill.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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mauretania1906Tue May-12-15 08:51 AM
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#52807, "RE: Funnel internal structure"
In response to Reply # 10
Tue May-12-15 09:04 AMby mauretania1906

  

          

Dear Ralph,

I can't post an image. I'm sorry. I could ask permission. These are images I went over for a book, then were sold to another. The scans are so big I could count anything - it must be a few feet all seen. For example, there are 45 vertical rivets from the highest horizontal double row to funnel top. I imagine this is known from blueprints. There are seventeen "rungs" on the two whistle platforms. The whistle appears two toned. I suppose this is all known information but I am looking at it quite up-close.
Anyway - yes! They are there on port. Almost totally obscured by another shroud or support etc. but there, thin, two of them, again close together. I can not see just where they attach (photo is not dead center line), but they are certainly attached to the first funnel - the angle of incidence precludes any other possibility. I am looking up. I hope this helps. This is not my area - I'm a 'simple Mauretania man".

Best wishes,
Eric

PS - FWIW, I can't recall what I read here about the composition of the stays or supports - the six per side - but one or three are quite kinked with visible bends.

PSS - I blew this up even larger still - those 2 port lines are connected to regular support or stay or shrouds rings - whatever it is between buff and black - those rings. Imagine same is true of starboard. Just looked - yes.

  

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Ralph CurrellTue May-12-15 02:00 PM
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#52810, "RE: Funnel internal structure"
In response to Reply # 11


          

Hi Eric,

No problem about not posting the image. I quite understand.

I had misinterpreted your earlier post to suggest that there were an extra set of blocks or sheaves for these lines, but you have clarified that they were attached to the same eyes as the funnel shrouds.

Thank you for the information. It is something else to keep an eye out for in photographs. The observation about the kinks in the funnel shrouds is interesting too; they were made of wire rope and probably not kept under great tension so the occasional slight kink might be expected.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Bill BairdSat Jul-29-17 08:10 PM
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#55386, "RE: Funnel Stays"
In response to Reply # 3


          

I am just starting in this so forgive the ignorance. How were the funnel shrouds fastened to the deck? When the shrouds snapped, is there any research on whether they let go from the funnel or pulled out of the deck?

One more if I can. I saw somewhere else discussion of the possibility of crew attempting to remove/loosen a shroud to get at one of the collapsibles. Any truth to that?

Again thanks for any help for a newbie.

Bill Baird

  

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Ralph CurrellSun Jul-30-17 03:36 PM
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#55387, "RE: Funnel Stays"
In response to Reply # 13
Sun Jul-30-17 07:36 PMby Ralph Currell

          

Hi Bill,

The funnel shrouds were fastened to eye pads on the deck. A rope connection (I think the correct term is "lanyard" or "lashing") was used to join the lower end of the shroud to the eye pad link, as shown here.



I don't know how exactly the shrouds failed on the Titanic.

I vaguely recall reading of a shroud or stay being cut during the sinking, but I don't know if it was a funnel shroud. Someone more familiar with the inquiry testimony may be able to help us with that.

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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bpreadMon Jul-31-17 04:53 PM
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#55389, "no message"
In response to Reply # 14
Mon Jul-31-17 05:10 PMby TRMA

          

nm

  

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bpreadMon Jul-31-17 04:53 PM
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#55390, "no message"
In response to Reply # 14
Mon Jul-31-17 05:11 PMby TRMA

          

nm

  

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bpreadMon Jul-31-17 04:55 PM
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#55391, "no message"
In response to Reply # 14
Mon Jul-31-17 05:11 PMby TRMA

          

nm

  

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bpreadMon Jul-31-17 04:56 PM
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#55392, "no message"
In response to Reply # 14
Mon Jul-31-17 05:12 PMby TRMA

          

nm

  

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bpreadMon Jul-31-17 04:56 PM
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#55393, "RE: Funnel Stays"
In response to Reply # 14


          

Hi Ralph
I've tried to track these down and I was only able to find two:

1. During the lowering of emergency cutter #1 it appears that they forgot to remove the gripes and then put enough weight of the boat on them that they couldn't release them. A crewman got an axe and cut away the gripes freeing the boat for lowering.

2. Walter Lord apparently found a newspaper report about a crewman who said he and another crewman had to chop away a sounding spar which was obstructing lifeboat #4 below after the boat was loaded from A deck. This story was not mentioned in any of the post-disaster hearings as one would expect. So this story is dubious at best.

Regards
Bob Read

  

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Ralph CurrellMon Jul-31-17 06:22 PM
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#55394, "RE: Funnel Stays"
In response to Reply # 19


          

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the additional info. I found one other mention of a 'guy' being cut away in the testimony of George Symons regarding Boat No.1. (See http://www.titanicinquiry.org/BOTInq/BOTInq10Symons02.php , question 11454.)

When we were lowered down, just below B deck, we got hung up by a wire guy. I told them on the boat deck to stop lowering. They stopped lowering almost immediately. Then they asked me what the trouble was, and I said we were hung up by a wire guy. Someone came down on the next deck and chopped it away, and from there we proceeded to the water without a mishap and released the boat very satisfactorily.

This sounds like the cutting of the gripes that Bob mentioned in his message. In any event it was not a funnel shroud.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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