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Subject: "Titanic deck supports" Previous topic | Next topic
s-bguzikSun Nov-20-16 11:36 PM
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#54354, "Titanic deck supports"


          

I have been 3D modeling a section of titanic a hull. I am having trouble though finding out how the ceiling/floor supports which run horizontal to the ships side attached to the ribs. If it's helpful I can post a picture of my model and more specifically what I need
help with. All hell is appreciated.

Thanks,
Brady

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Titanic deck supports, Ralph Currell, Nov 21st 2016, #1
RE: Titanic deck supports, s-bguzik, Nov 21st 2016, #2
      RE: Titanic deck supports, Ralph Currell, Nov 21st 2016, #3
           Rivets, Ralph Currell, Nov 21st 2016, #4
                RE: Rivets, s-bguzik, Nov 21st 2016, #5
                     RE: Rivets, s-bguzik, Nov 21st 2016, #6
                          RE: Rivets, Ralph Currell, Nov 21st 2016, #7
                               RE: Titanic deck supports, Bill West, Nov 21st 2016, #8
                               RE: Titanic deck supports, s-bguzik, Nov 22nd 2016, #11
                                    RE: Titanic deck supports, Bill West, Jan 03rd 2017, #28
                               RE: Rivets, s-bguzik, Nov 22nd 2016, #9
                                    RE: Rivets, Ralph Currell, Nov 22nd 2016, #10
                                         RE: Rivets, s-bguzik, Nov 22nd 2016, #12
                                              RE: Rivets, Ralph Currell, Nov 25th 2016, #13
                                                   RE: Rivets, s-bguzik, Nov 27th 2016, #14
                                                   RE: Rivets, s-bguzik, Nov 28th 2016, #15
                                                   RE: Rivets, Ralph Currell, Nov 29th 2016, #16
                                                        RE: Rivets, s-bguzik, Nov 29th 2016, #17
                                                             RE: Rivets, Ralph Currell, Nov 30th 2016, #18
                                                                  RE: Rivets, Titanic5972, Nov 30th 2016, #19
                                                                       RE: Rivets, Titanic5972, Nov 30th 2016, #20
                                                                       RE: Rivets, Ralph Currell, Dec 01st 2016, #21
                                                                            RE: Rivets, s-bguzik, Dec 03rd 2016, #22
                                                                            RE: Rivets, s-bguzik, Dec 03rd 2016, #23
                                                                                 RE: Rivets, Ralph Currell, Dec 04th 2016, #24
                                                                                      RE: Rivets, s-bguzik, Dec 05th 2016, #25
                                                                                      RE: Rivets, s-bguzik, Dec 05th 2016, #26
                                                                                      RE: Rivets, Ralph Currell, Dec 07th 2016, #27
                                                   RE: Rivets, jsand42, Apr 07th 2017, #29
                                                   RE: Rivets, Ralph Currell, Apr 08th 2017, #30
                                                   RE: Rivets, s-bguzik, Apr 10th 2017, #31
                                                        RE: Rivets, Ralph Currell, Apr 11th 2017, #32
                                                             RE: Rivets, s-bguzik, Apr 11th 2017, #33
                                                                  RE: Rivets, Ralph Currell, Apr 11th 2017, #34
                                                                       RE: Rivets, Ralph Currell, Apr 12th 2017, #35
                                                                            RE: Rivets, s-bguzik, Apr 12th 2017, #36
                                                                                 RE: Rivets, Ralph Currell, Apr 13th 2017, #37

Ralph CurrellMon Nov-21-16 09:53 AM
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#54356, "RE: Titanic deck supports"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Hello Brady,

The deck beams were typically connected to the hull frames by beam brackets as shown.




Is that what you were looking for?

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)

  

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s-bguzikMon Nov-21-16 11:10 AM
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#54357, "RE: Titanic deck supports"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Thanks you for your help. Yes this is what I was looking for. I can post some pictures of the model before I 3d print it. But really quick I have one more question for you when I still have your attention. I know that below the portholes on D deck the hull plating appears to have no rivets. Is this true? If so how were they attached to the ribs? Did they just have rivets with a flat head? And if they did use rivets. Do you know they pattern they Used?

Thanks again,
Brady

  

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Ralph CurrellMon Nov-21-16 12:26 PM
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#54359, "RE: Titanic deck supports"
In response to Reply # 2


          

Hi Brady,

Yes, the shell plating was certainly riveted to the frames, but as you guessed the rivets are hammered almost flat against the plate (which is countersunk) and are practically invisible unless viewed from very close. For the purposes of your model I'd suggest ignoring them.

The diagram at https://archive.org/stream/steelshipstheir00waltgoog#page/n320/mode/2up shows different types of rivets; I believe number 5 shows the type we're discussing.

Here's a photo of damaged plating where the shell rivets can be seen.


Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Ralph CurrellMon Nov-21-16 12:43 PM
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#54360, "Rivets"
In response to Reply # 3


          

Hi Brady,

I belatedly realized, after submitting my previous message, that you are also modelling the inside of the plating so the rivet heads would indeed be visible there. I don't have any plans showing the precise pattern of rivets, but you can get an idea of what was done by looking at these photos of Olympic after the Hawke collision.

http://nmni.com/titanic/Home/Photo-Galleries/Olympic-Repairs---Refitting.aspx

Regards,
Ralph

  

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s-bguzikMon Nov-21-16 05:06 PM
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#54361, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 4


          

Thank you Ralph! I myself am a Ttanic enthusiats and have been for many years. But my knowlede has extended only to the paneling of the ship. I have never gotten to the steel structure. I have a picture poste dof my model currently. I will post updates. But just to confirm. I know that the deck supports had connectors running horizontal to them. But were they only were the cabin/stateroom met the main hall or did they have a set increment of spacing. I am looking at the original build photo showing its interior but I still cant tell. You already helped me a ton and I hope to keep you updated!

Thanks,
Brady

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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s-bguzikMon Nov-21-16 07:25 PM
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#54362, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 5


          

I hope I am not asking to many questions but I really could use the help to make my model accurate! I am making the horizontal deck supports now and I dont know how far to extend them. I also do know what the size is of the recessed plate below the D deck portholes. I am realising more and more that I need the iron plans... Well thanks for your help anyways.

Thanks,
Brady

  

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Ralph CurrellMon Nov-21-16 10:21 PM
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#54363, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 6


          

Hi Brady,

Thanks for the image; I think I now understand better what you are asking. You're basically recreating the structure at the location of the 'big piece' that was recovered from the wreck site.

I'll have a look at such plans as I have and see if I can work out what is going on where the deck meets the shell plating. There may be others on this forum who are more familiar than I with these structural details.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Bill WestMon Nov-21-16 11:22 PM
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#54364, "RE: Titanic deck supports"
In response to Reply # 7


          

Hello Brady, nice 3D modelling.
In general the deck beams go all the way across to the opposite side. The exceptions are anywhere the floor plans show an opening in the deck, such as holds, engine rooms, boiler rooms, boiler uptakes, staircases, elevator shafts. These places would be framed by beams going around the opening. The small ones would likely be the same size beam but the large ones might have a heavier beam running fore and aft between columns so as to pick up the load above all the deck beams cut off in that area. If you are just modelling the "Big Piece" you may end up cutting the beams off with a drafter's zig zag or lazy "S" line at a length that fits your drawing space.

You might also consider the camber of the deck beams in your drawing. All the beams were curved so that the midpoint of a full width 92 foot beam was 3 inches higher than at ship side. Shorter beams towards each end of the ship kept the same curve. An online calculator for chord, height and radius gives the radius as 4232.125 feet.

Bill

  

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s-bguzikTue Nov-22-16 10:41 AM
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#54367, "RE: Titanic deck supports"
In response to Reply # 8


          

Thanks! I knew that I should make sure to add the curvature to the deck but I did not know the size. I am currently planning on just modeling to the extent of the cabins internal wall. But I may make it bigger. I don't really know quite yet. Thanks for the tips! I am getting TTSM from my library, and when I have access to the iron plans things should go much faster!

Thanks,
Brady

  

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Bill WestTue Jan-03-17 08:51 PM
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#54507, "RE: Titanic deck supports"
In response to Reply # 11


          

Just came across a calculation for camber in CC Pounder's book, pg85. He says it is a flat parabola giving y=a(1-B^2/L^2) where y is the height at distance B from midships. L is half the breadth of the deck and "a" is the camber height at midships.

I ran it on a spreadsheet and found that for the Titanic's 3 inch rise over 92 foot breadth, the difference compared to a radius was never more than 0.00002 inches. Not worth using the parabola over a simple radius. The advantage to H&W may have just been that they wouldn't have to manually calculate the radius first.

Bill

  

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s-bguzikTue Nov-22-16 08:42 AM
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#54365, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 7


          

Thanks you very much for your help. While you are looking at your plans, i am getting a copy of TTSM from my library. I am certain that book will help me.

Thanks,
Brady

  

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Ralph CurrellTue Nov-22-16 09:57 AM
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#54366, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 9


          

Hi Brady,

Yes, TTSM will definitely be helpful. You might also find these threads of interest (they show the construction of a scale model of the 'big piece').

http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=123&topic_id=6319&mode=full
http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=123&topic_id=6643&mesg_id=6643

Regards,
Ralph

  

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s-bguzikTue Nov-22-16 07:26 PM
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#54368, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 10


          

Yes, I have read into that forum awhile back but to simplify things. I wish I nonew how I could come across the builders plans. I have always wanted to make a highly accurate model but I could not because I can't figure out how to get access to the builders plans. I have always felt very limited as to what I could do. I am guessing that the plans are not free like online deck plans. I am getting TTSM what plans specifically does volume one contain? Bulkhead plans? Rib plans? Anything else? As always, thank you.

Thanks,
Brady Guzik

  

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Ralph CurrellFri Nov-25-16 07:27 AM
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#54380, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 12


          

Hi Brady,

Sorry for the delay in responding; I got sidetracked with other things.

I've marked up your image with some information I thought would be useful. Most of this comes from the midship section plan in TTSM vol.1 page 79.



As to the riveting, refer to the diagram in TTSM vol.1 page 149, and of course to photos of the 'big piece'. The large (hydraulic) rivets in this area are 1-1/8".

I hope this is helpful.

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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s-bguzikSun Nov-27-16 04:38 PM
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#54388, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 13


          

Thanks again Ralph! You have been very helpful for me!

Sincerely,

Brady

  

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s-bguzikMon Nov-28-16 06:56 PM
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#54390, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 13


          

I have modeled the stringer angles and the stringer chocks to the proper dimensions. My question now is how do they fit into/onto eachother? I have attached a photo of the side view. You should be able to makeout the l shaped stringers. I have been looking at pictures of the ig piece and it almost looks like the stringer chock is mirrored for a sort of _I_ shape instead of I_. All help is appreciated.

Thanks again,

Brady

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Ralph CurrellTue Nov-29-16 08:41 AM
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#54391, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 15


          

Hi Brady,

This is the arrangement as I understand it.


One interesting detail on the big piece is the presence of a short length of angle (I think this is called a "bosom piece") on the C Deck stringer angle. This does not appear at each frame, but is used to tie together the ends of two long angles.



Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (gif file)

  

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s-bguzikTue Nov-29-16 05:29 PM
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#54393, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 16


          

Thank you Ralph!

I have also found out the three foot spacing inbetween ribs from the book. But I just realised because of this my rivet plans are off. Yea! So just wonderin, does anybody know the actual spacing between rivets or should I just try my best?

  

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Ralph CurrellWed Nov-30-16 09:30 AM
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#54395, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 17


          

Hi Brady,

The rivet spacing varies, particularly around the frames. At the landings where the shell plates overlap it seems to be around 4.5 inches horizontal and 3.5 inches vertical spacing (with variations). Apart from that, I think you'll have to be guided by photographs.

For my own education, I'm working on a drawing of the rivet pattern and other elements in that area of the hull. It's turning out to be a bit more work than I anticipated, but I'll upload it here when I'm done.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Titanic5972Wed Nov-30-16 11:31 PM
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#54397, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 18


          

I believe that the ribs closed from 3ft spacing to 2ft spacing at the bow and stern, to give more rigidity.

Ryan

  

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Titanic5972Wed Nov-30-16 11:34 PM
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#54398, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 19


          

This page on the other forum may be of help.

http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=123&topic_id=9193&mesg_id=9195&page=

Has an image of the stern part of H&W original framing plan. Gives rivet sizes and framing spacing a as well.

Rya

  

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Ralph CurrellThu Dec-01-16 05:37 PM
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#54400, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 19
Thu Dec-01-16 06:20 PMby Ralph Currell

          

Hi Ryan,

Yes, that's correct about the frame spacing (actually it's 24 inches at the bow and 27 inches at the stern). Thanks for the link to the framing plan image (and thanks to Lionel for posting it). It doesn't show the part of the ship we're discussing, but it gives a good idea of the type of information it would provide.

Brady, you'll probably notice it anyway but I'll mention that I've posted that drawing of the rivet pattern here: http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=54399&mode=full

Regards,
Ralph

  

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s-bguzikSat Dec-03-16 11:23 PM
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#54408, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 21


          

Yes! Ralph this is very helpful info! Thank you again for you help! Since you have drawn it up could you possible state some dimensiosn you have based on your drawing of inbetween the rivets? And just to claify, I know these ribs were spaced 3 feet apart, but three feet from the ribs center or edge? I know I have been askig a lot of questions on this forum, but up until now I focused on her interior not her structure so this is rather new to me. But I want to make sure my model is top notch!

Happy Holidays,

Brady

  

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s-bguzikSat Dec-03-16 11:23 PM
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#54409, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 21


          

Yes! Ralph this is very helpful info! Thank you again for you help! Since you have drawn it up could you possible state some dimensiosn you have based on your drawing of inbetween the rivets? And just to claify, I know these ribs were spaced 3 feet apart, but three feet from the ribs center or edge? I know I have been askig a lot of questions on this forum, but up until now I focused on her interior not her structure so this is rather new to me. But I want to make sure my model is top notch!

Happy Holidays,

Brady

  

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Ralph CurrellSun Dec-04-16 01:40 PM
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#54410, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 23


          

Hi Brady,

The frame spacing is typically given with reference to the heel of the frame as shown here (this is a view from above).



As to the rivet spacing, it varies as I mentioned above. The rivets were arranged at a spacing appropriate to the plates and frames that they were joining, and placed so as not to be too close to an edge. I can only recommend using photos of the big piece and that drawing I posted.

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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s-bguzikMon Dec-05-16 07:15 PM
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#54412, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 24


          

I am probably entering the unknown just about know, but does anyone know the radius of the curve inside the ribs?

  

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s-bguzikMon Dec-05-16 10:02 PM
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#54413, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 25


          

I see from the archival footage these angled supports beneth the workers. I am guessing this is what the plans in TTSM show? What they call the outer stringer?

  

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Ralph CurrellWed Dec-07-16 09:49 PM
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#54416, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 26


          

Hi Brady,

The deck stringer was formed by the deck plates at the outboard edge, adjacent to the shell. By making them somewhat thicker than the normal deck plates, and securing them to the shell, they gave added strength to the ship's structure. Some decks had an inner stringer and an outer stringer, which can be seen on the midship section plan.

>>>I am probably entering the unknown just about know, but does anyone know the radius of the curve inside the ribs?


The frames at the height of the big piece had no perceptible curvature. They were however angled inboard slightly (about 1.2 degrees from vertical by my estimate).

Regards,
Ralph

  

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jsand42Fri Apr-07-17 09:17 PM
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#54911, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 13
Fri Apr-07-17 09:19 PMby jsand42

          

Ralph - do you have a source for your figure for the vertical frame dimensions (10" x 4-13/20" x 4-3/20" x 13/20")? I'm specifically wondering about the third number (4-3/20"). The only printed source I've found for that so far is the note toward the bottom left of the figure "400-01 MIDSHIP SECTION" drawing on pg. 71 of TTSM V1, which appears to say:

MAIN FRAMES 10" x 4-13/20" x 4-13/20 x 13/20"

(note 4-13/20" vs. 4-3/20")

Do you have a different source?

(By the way, does anyone know if drawings are rendered in any higher resolution in the new edition of TTSM? The book is fantasitc, but the images are noticeably lower-res than the text, and some smaller drawing notes such as on pg. 71 are illegible. I have volume 2 of the new edition on the way right now but I have the original volume 1)

Jeff Sand

  

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Ralph CurrellSat Apr-08-17 04:09 AM
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#54915, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 29
Sat Apr-08-17 02:27 PMby Ralph Currell

          

Hi Jeff,

I think I picked that frame dimension from the diagram at the bottom of page 78 (TTSM volume 1). It may also appear in one of the survey documents; I'll check that later today if time permits.

I agree that midship section plan in TTSM could be a bit clearer. I have no idea if it's any better in the reprint. Maybe someone else here who has a copy of the second edition could comment.

Regards,
Ralph

(Edited to add: any further posts on the frame dimension question should go in the 'Transverse Frame Dimensions' thread, http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=54011 )

  

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s-bguzikMon Apr-10-17 06:22 PM
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#54933, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 13


          

Hey Ralph,

I know its been awhile but I finally have finished off old projects so I have time again for this one. When you say the frames with a star are made up of two angles isnt every frame with two angles? Im probably just not seeing something right.

Thanks again,

Brady Guzik

  

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Ralph CurrellTue Apr-11-17 07:10 AM
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#54939, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 31


          

Hi Brady,

The hull frames were typically of single-piece channel section. Those are the channels Jeff was inquiring about in his post.

In some instances however they used two angle pieces to make a channel or Z section. Examination of 'big piece' photos will show this was the case for the two frames I highlighted.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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s-bguzikTue Apr-11-17 10:32 AM
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#54943, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 32


          

Dear Ralph,

So what would a cross section or top view of these ribs look like with the bulkhead walls attached like on the big piece? How would it look from the top so I can create a cross section to build off of?

Thanks again,

Brady Guzik

  

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Ralph CurrellTue Apr-11-17 12:05 PM
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#54945, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 33


          

Hi Brady,

I think I did a top view when I created my 'big piece' illustration, but that was several months back. I'll see if I can dig up the files today or tomorrow.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Ralph CurrellWed Apr-12-17 09:48 AM
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#54947, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 34


          

Here are the frames at the 'C' deck level. Along with my earlier illustration and photos of the piece it should give you enough information to go by.



Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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s-bguzikWed Apr-12-17 07:11 PM
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#54948, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 35
Wed Apr-12-17 09:15 PMby s-bguzik

          

Ok. So I am going to try and shorten up posts by throwing in multiple questions at once. Looking from my current progress this is what I have to ask.

1. How are the deck beams connected to the ribs made of two angles?
2. How thick are the deck plates on B C and D deck?
3. What point do you measure the deck height? Is it from the top of a floor beam to the bottom of the one above?
4. How/where do the vertical beam supports attach and what are their dimensions?
5. And just to confirm are the deck Beams the Sam dimensions as the ribs or something else altogether?

Sincerely,

Brady Guzik

  

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Ralph CurrellThu Apr-13-17 07:15 AM
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#54949, "RE: Rivets"
In response to Reply # 36
Thu Apr-13-17 07:18 AMby Ralph Currell

          

Hi Brady,

In answer to your questions,

1. I assume the same way as they're attached to normal frames (using beam brackets as described earlier in this thread).

2. The stringer plates (i.e. the deck plates where they meet the shell) were 20/20" at B and C decks, and 15/20" at D deck.

3. Deck heights are typically measured between tops of beams.

4. Not understood.

5. Deck beams are different; they were 9" x 4" x 4" channels on B, C and D decks.

Dimensions given are for the area of the "big piece"; the scantlings may change approaching the fore and aft ends of the ship.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Titanic artwork at top of page is owned and copyright of Stuart Williamson and is used with permission.