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Subject: "Mauretania bridge top mystery structure " Previous topic | Next topic
caderchrisFri Feb-03-17 04:04 AM
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#54603, "Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "


          

am in need of our collective knowledge to help solve a mystery.
I am making a 1/350 Mauretania in dazzle scheme, which is going quite well so far.
I the course of my research, i have seen tiny little glimpses of a structure on top of the bridge.
It looks like a raised compass platform thats made out of wood as i can see the upright posts around the edge, but other than that i haven't been able to find any pictures of it and what its for.

Anyone know what it could be? have a clear picture or plan of it, etc etc?
i would be very grateful

Just for note, the attached shows the structure but other than showing one side, it doesn't tell much more



Chris McCallion

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , Ralph Currell, Feb 03rd 2017, #1
RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , caderchris, Feb 03rd 2017, #2
      RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , Ralph Currell, Feb 03rd 2017, #3
           RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , mauretania1906, Feb 06th 2017, #4
                RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , caderchris, Feb 06th 2017, #5
                     RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , caderchris, Feb 06th 2017, #6
                          RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , mauretania1906, Feb 06th 2017, #7
                               RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , Ralph Currell, Feb 07th 2017, #8
                                    RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , mauretania1906, Feb 07th 2017, #9
                                         RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , caderchris, Feb 09th 2017, #10
                                              RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , mauretania1906, Feb 09th 2017, #11
                                                   RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , Ralph Currell, Feb 10th 2017, #12
                                                        RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , mauretania1906, Feb 10th 2017, #13
                                                             RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , mauretania1906, Feb 15th 2017, #14
                                                             RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , mauretania1906, Feb 15th 2017, #15
                                                                  RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , Ralph Currell, Feb 16th 2017, #16
                                                                       RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , mauretania1906, Feb 16th 2017, #17
                                                                       RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , mauretania1906, Feb 17th 2017, #18
                                                                       RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , J. Kent Layton, Feb 27th 2017, #19
                                                                            RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , Ralph Currell, Feb 27th 2017, #22
                                                                                 RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , mauretania1906, Feb 27th 2017, #23
                                                                                 RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , J. Kent Layton, Feb 28th 2017, #24
                                                                                 RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , mauretania1906, Mar 13th 2017, #29
                                                                                 RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , J. Kent Layton, Feb 28th 2017, #25
                                                                                      RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , mauretania1906, Feb 28th 2017, #26
                                                                                      RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , mauretania1906, Mar 06th 2017, #27
                                                             RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , J. Kent Layton, Feb 27th 2017, #21
RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , J. Kent Layton, Feb 27th 2017, #20
RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure , Ralph Currell, Mar 11th 2017, #28

Ralph CurrellFri Feb-03-17 06:53 AM
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#54604, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 0


          

Hi Chris,

If Eric Longo sees this he'll probably give you a better answer, but here's my take.

It seems to be, as you suggest, a platform for the standard compass. Here's a rather poor image of the structure on the dazzle-painted Mauretania.



A similar structure can be seen on the Aquitania at http://prints.rmg.co.uk/art/502158/flying-bridge-on-the-aquitania-1914 , though I don't know if Mauretania's platform included the wheel and steering compass.

Regards,
Ralph


Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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caderchrisFri Feb-03-17 10:47 AM
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#54605, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 1


          

That picture is an absolute goldmine of information for me.
If anyone else has something similar, it would be very helpful

  

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Ralph CurrellFri Feb-03-17 03:14 PM
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#54611, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 2


          

Hi Chris,

That was just a portion of a much larger photo that can be downloaded from the Library of Congress site. There are six photos in the series (see http://www.loc.gov/pictures/related/?&pk=ggb2006003378&st=gallery&sb=call_number#focus ). You'll probably want to download the high-resolution TIFF images.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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mauretania1906Mon Feb-06-17 04:16 AM
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#54617, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 3
Mon Feb-06-17 04:22 AMby mauretania1906

  

          

Hi Chris,

I am surprised to hear of the model build - I never heard back from you in your other thread regarding true first dazzle scheme. You are doing the second and final scheme - the diamond dazzle, or the first?
Yes, a compass platform. The railing you see here, to which canvas was attached, doesn't seem to be in place until just before the MV in Nov. '07. In the image you posted, I see a 22-foot ribband in the middle of being hoisted it seems, so that is Olympic in front of Mauretania, the date is July 1934 and the location is Berth 108 @ the Western Docks. Really nice image. Where did you find it?
Here is a photo from 1925 or '26 looking aft along the starboard side, showing you some more of this structure.

Best wishes,
Eric


Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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caderchrisMon Feb-06-17 01:00 PM
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#54619, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 4


          

Hi Eric,

Appologies for not getting back to you. I am doing the second and final scheme. I have got a copy of the original dazzle plans, so I am fairly confident on its accuracy.

As for the photo of the ribbon, it's from "the unseen Mauretania" I haven't really been able to find many pictures of the top of the bridge, I get hints of it and I found a view from the crows nest looking aft, but it was cropped to show the top of the rear posts, so the photo you have posted is a real help, so I know what both sides looks like and I can make an educated guess to the width

  

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caderchrisMon Feb-06-17 01:12 PM
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#54620, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 5


          

Looking at the the earlier picture and then compare it to the one with the ribbon in the middle, it appears that the platform was extended at some point, I wonder if a wheel was installed to make a flying bridge.

In the second photo of the ship in dazzle, I can make out the platform and the range finder in front of it, but any ideas what the box is and the tall thing? It looks like a vent but it's very tall and thin for one


Chris

  

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mauretania1906Mon Feb-06-17 08:34 PM
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#54622, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

Hi Chris,

You are welcome - that was why I picked that photo to post - it shows you a very different view. No, no wheel installed to my knowledge or in my photographs. You can see the shape of the platform if you look at the photos I linked to earlier - the model by Jim Baumann that I assisted with. That model and his superb photographs of it should be a great help to you. In the other thread I think I had asked you if you meant Brennan or Baumann?

Best wishes,
Eric

  

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Ralph CurrellTue Feb-07-17 06:39 AM
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#54623, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 7


          

Hi Eric,

The photo of the crewmen holding the riband also appeared in the 'Illustrated London News' of 6 July 1935. The cropping of the photo was about the same as the one Chris posted, so there's no additional detail visible of that compass platform.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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mauretania1906Tue Feb-07-17 04:13 PM
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#54624, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 8
Wed Feb-15-17 11:08 PMby mauretania1906

  

          

Hi Ralph,

I thought I had seen that 1.7.35 image somewhere else - thanks. The base of the structure was square as I recall from Jim's model and other sources. It is overlooked a lot as it doesn't appear on most large builders models IIRC - I think they have two skylights there or something. Without the railing and the canvas it is very low and easily missed. I will have to look again when I have more time. It does appear on the FDR model though, so maybe that can also help Chris.

Best wishes,
Eric

  

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caderchrisThu Feb-09-17 05:12 AM
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#54631, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 9


          

What's the FDR model?

Chris

  

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mauretania1906Thu Feb-09-17 11:20 AM
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#54632, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 10
Wed Feb-15-17 11:07 PMby mauretania1906

  

          

Hi Chris,

I am having trouble posting at the moment. The FDR model is a large model of the Mauretania presented to Franklin Roosevelt by Bob Blake, the American head of Cunard. Roosevelt donated the model, along with his personal collection of over 100 photographs, a letter protesting her demise, and a brass lamp said to be from her "main lobby" to the Smithsonian Institution on July 2, 1932 while Mauretania was on her last voyage to the breakers yards at Rosyth. The model, noted for its thick and crudely applied white cruise repainting and green hull, could be seen aboard the Queen Mary for many years. It was removed to the Smithsonian Institution where it was restored and is now on display.

Here is a link to a profile view that shows the platform in question, just out of focus I believe, between the two skylights running along the center-line above the bridge on the FDR model:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mr_t_in_dc/3576826281


Best wishes,
Eric

  

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Ralph CurrellFri Feb-10-17 05:37 PM
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#54638, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 11


          

Hi Chris & Eric,

Here's a shot showing the structure. You can see its position relative to the two skylights.

Also visible is that tall object Chris was asking about earlier. I think it may be a mechanical semaphore for signalling.



This is a detail from a very nice photo at https://www.loc.gov/item/det1994012486/PP/ . Choose one of the TIFF downloads to see it in high resolution.

I'm guessing this is a pre-war photo. Eric, you probably have a better idea than I as to the date.

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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mauretania1906Fri Feb-10-17 07:18 PM
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#54641, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 12
Wed Feb-15-17 11:09 PMby mauretania1906

  

          

Hi Ralph,

Yes, pre WW1. 1913 from the lifeboat arrangement and the dark deck houses. That is a good image - I am wondering now if perhaps this platform was modified (raised) at some point. When I have time I will look over some additional images. It seems lower early on.

Best wishes,
Eric

  

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mauretania1906Wed Feb-15-17 09:21 PM
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#54658, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 13
Thu Feb-16-17 02:02 AMby mauretania1906

  

          

Hi All, Ralph, Chris...

Here is a photo I thought I had sold - happy to see I did not. About 1909. When I have a chance I will make a better scan - the photo is great - the old scan - not so much. Earlier images appear to show a lower platform, and many other images with the canvas up don't show the platform at all as in white it really gets lost from any distance. October 22, 1907 shows what really appears a lower platform without canvas or even railings - upon arrival at Liverpool on October 22nd, after her delivery trip and very informal "trials". Obviously, it is possible the canvas could have just been lower in some images, appearing as a lower platform, but I have some other images I will search for that show it much lower w/o any canvas or railings early on. It looks to have been just about doubled in height so far, and I have not worked out when. Comparing the base of the structure in the image Ralph posted on the 11th with my first contribution it appears it might have been lowered after the war.


Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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mauretania1906Wed Feb-15-17 11:02 PM
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#54659, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 14
Wed Feb-15-17 11:20 PMby mauretania1906

  

          

Hi again
Some images from my collection. The first unpublished original photograph was taken by John Crape of Crape Confectioners and sent to himself, and shows the bridge at the time of her first public inspection - workers and their families. I have a neat postcard that describes this, and gives the cost to get aboard and how many people visited her. The second image is from a sharp W&Co card postmarked Liverpool at 7:30pm on November 16th, 1907 and which bears a message describing her maiden departure for NY. Both seem to show a lower platform. I will search for more. I see the difference in the angle of incidence for these two photographers, but one might expect some of this platform to show, especially on the Crape photograph. As I mentioned in the above post, I am now wondering if it was raised and then lowered after the war.


Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Ralph CurrellThu Feb-16-17 09:48 AM
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#54661, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 15


          

Hi Eric,

Excellent photos!

I notice in the case of Lusitania that the compass was originally mounted to the wheelhouse roof, with no platform at all. A platform similar to Mauretania's was later added, and can be seen in the video of her last sailing. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZOqw5XEaN0 at around the 4:27 and 5:00 time marks.

Lusitania also had a second platform between funnels 1 and 2 (visible around 4:24 in the video). I don't know if anything similar was present on Mauretania.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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mauretania1906Thu Feb-16-17 04:23 PM
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#54667, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

Hi Ralph,

And here is Lusi's compass platform:


Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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mauretania1906Fri Feb-17-17 06:35 PM
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#54670, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

"Lusitania also had a second platform between funnels 1 and 2 (visible around 4:24 in the video). I don't know if anything similar was present on Mauretania." - Ralp Curell

I'm going to look.

Eric






  

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J. Kent LaytonMon Feb-27-17 03:12 PM
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#54709, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

Ralph,

Nice catch on noticing the Lusitania's second compass platform. For reference, I'm attaching a unique photo of the Lusitania's Bridge Roof, kindly loaned to me for the 2015 edition of my Lusitania book by artist and collector Stuart Williamson. I've watermarked this cropping to protect his rights.



The second photograph is a port profile from the Library of Congress, available in high resolution from their site. It shows both compass platforms ca. winter 1914-1915.




Regards,
J. Kent Layton
www.atlanticliners.com



Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)

  

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Ralph CurrellMon Feb-27-17 10:24 PM
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#54712, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 19


          

Hi Kent,

That Lusitania aerial shot is great. Not only is the compass platform shown, but the Morse signal lamp and the semaphore are visible. It seems the Morse lamp is a bit further forward on Lusitania than on Mauretania. Also, Lusitania's compass platform has two stairways on either side while Mauretania has a single stairway at the rear of the platform.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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mauretania1906Mon Feb-27-17 11:30 PM
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#54713, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 22
Tue Feb-28-17 12:14 AMby mauretania1906

  

          

Hi Kent,

Good to hear from you. I have been OK. Great photos Kent, and excellent observations Ralph. It appears a vent prevented the single staircase on Lusi.
In haste here and under much stress - first, I must correct the date of the Mauretania photograph I have shown above as October 22, 1907. That is actually October 24th. The 1913 date - I honestly can't recall right now what I spotted, but the lifeboat changes to Mauretania after the loss of Titanic were an unsettled matter until shortly after November 1913 from my photographs - up till then the boat deck aft and by the 2nd Class deck house was strewn with rafts that don't really show up well in profile. Look at some photographs of her at Gladstone following the cylinder explosion, Feb/Mar 1914. She still appears to have her original compliment - I might guess it was at this time and location her additional boats were properly installed as all seems fine by August 6th in Halifax. BTW, the one photo you showed without a date must predate August 1918 as the forward bulwarks are still curved - if I recall the image it is closer to 1908 or so and at the stage? The image labeled post-maiden voyage is third arrival, NY, IIRC. Your July 1932 shows what appears to be light-painted bridge doors - black hull, yes?

Best wishes,
Eric

PS - Finally figured when and where her bow guns were removed. A ton of WW1 stuff coming with some new data as well.

  

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J. Kent LaytonTue Feb-28-17 01:43 PM
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#54715, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 23
Tue Feb-28-17 01:44 PMby J. Kent Layton

  

          

Eric,

I'm very glad to hear that you've been doing well! Thanks for your feedback on the Library of Congress photo. I've cropped the image to show the whole deck, and there is absolutely no evidence of post-Titanic lifeboats being strewn around the decks anywhere.



Of course, as you point out, they only finalized the lifeboat arrangements much later, but even in the second half of 1912 or 1913, lifeboats were visible all over the decks, and they are nowhere to be seen here. Unless there is further data in the image that I've missed, I strongly suspect it's a late 1909-1910 shot from what I'm seeing here.

As regards the other photos, the "post-maiden voyage" photo in New York appears to be just that, taken during her first stay in that port. The clue, to me (not shown in the cropping I posted), is the status of repainting the hull visible in the photo, which is a dead match for the repainting sequence seen after the maiden voyage arrival at that port, since the paint had worn off the bow during the crossing. Unless you had noticed something else of import?

On the bow-on early shot, I would definitely tend to agree with you... possibly late 1907, but more likely early 1908. Thanks again for your feedback, and take care!

Regards,
J. Kent Layton
www.atlanticliners.com

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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mauretania1906Mon Mar-13-17 02:25 AM
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#54782, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 24
Mon Mar-13-17 02:26 AMby mauretania1906

  

          

Hi Kent, Ralph,

Having had time to go over this again, you are clearly correct - 1908/09 for the broadside Ralph posted. I've been immersed in WW1 too long!


Best wishes,
Eric

  

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J. Kent LaytonTue Feb-28-17 01:45 PM
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#54716, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

Ralph,

When Stuart loaned me that photo, I nearly fell out of my chair. It is gorgeous!

Regards,
J. Kent Layton
www.atlanticliners.com

  

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mauretania1906Tue Feb-28-17 08:44 PM
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#54717, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

Hi Kent,

I can't recall the feature I spotted which suggested or indicated 1913 to me, and you obviously may well be correct about date, but re boats they are not lifeboats but apparent collapsibles or just simple rafts perhaps 3 feet in height - low enough that they might not show at all in profile. I have a photo from November 1913 looking up the port side from the aft docking bridge and they almost appear recessed - they also take up half to two-thirds of the boat deck aft. The look like thin lobster traps with pontoons on either side, simply lashed down in single and double rows but very low. I am not certain when the three or four not-davited boats were added amidships - mid to late 1912? I see now in some Gladstone images there are no additional lifeboats between the original sets of four and four as in one of my candids - but some in the published versions. I now expect the temporary boats were removed and some of the photograph at Gladstone show the installation process half done. Looking at July 1913 there are obvious differences there as well so the situation must have been in flux with perhaps 2-3 appearances. The nested boats are installed and the rafts gone by August 6th, 1914 from what I can see soI am thinking Gladstone. The photo that I suggested is 3rd arrival, I recognized the Albertype card immediately from just the crop you posted. That's a fairly tough card. Is yours also an advertisement to have private cards printed? In that image I recall the visual clue was not on the M but rather on land, and I likely used an additional photo or photos to triangulate it. I'm sorry I can't recall more right now - my mom is in the hospital and I am running around like crazy. Too much stress clouding my mind and memory.

Best wishes,
Eric

  

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mauretania1906Mon Mar-06-17 01:10 PM
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#54739, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

Hi Kent,

If you have a candid from 7.13.13 in profile you can just make of these very, very low rafts along the boat deck near the aft deck house. They are very hard to see and at that point used in conjunction with additional 3-4 non-davited boats.

Best,
Eric

  

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J. Kent LaytonMon Feb-27-17 05:58 PM
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#54711, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

Eric,

How have you been? I hope that you've been doing well. Just a quick question for you: you mentioned that this photograph from the Library of Congress was ca. 1913.

However, it shows no evidence of post-Titanic lifeboats. The reference material on the listing also dates it to sometime between 1907 and 1910. Although not a foolproof method of dating, the neighboring items also seem to come in closely around the time of the Hudson-Fulton Celebration in late 1909 through to 1910, which would be around the time that I would have thought this photo was taken.

So I was curious: was there something specific that led you to believe it was 1913, even though there were no extra lifeboats? Thanks in advance, and take care!

Regards,
J. Kent Layton
www.atlanticliners.com

  

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J. Kent LaytonMon Feb-27-17 03:46 PM
Member since Dec 19th 2004
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#54710, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Chris,

I'm sorry I'm coming in a bit late to the discussion here. I'm glad that you've been using and enjoying my book, The Unseen Mauretania, as a reference.

I just made a reply in another section of this thread showing two photos of the Lusitania's compass platforms, including one from a very unique aerial perspective.

I'm attaching a selection of well-watermarked images from my own collection of the Mauretania's own compass platform. They are taken at various stages of her career, and I've tried to date them for you where possible.



Many of these are private photographs, though not all. I hope that they help.

Regards,
J. Kent Layton
www.atlanticliners.com

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Ralph CurrellSat Mar-11-17 12:46 PM
Member since Mar 31st 2007
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#54772, "RE: Mauretania bridge top mystery structure "
In response to Reply # 20


          

Hi all,

We seem to have almost exhausted this topic, but I found a nice aerial pic that brings us back to the photo in Chris's original post.
http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw041073 (you may have to log into the site to use the zoom feature).



Chris wondered up-thread if the platform had been lengthened at some point, and it seems he is correct. In the 1933 photo the original base supports are still visible but the platform is extended forward. It appears to partly cover the forward skylight on the bridge roof. The photo resolution is insufficient to show whether a wheel was installed there. I'm not sure when this extension was added, but it must have been post-war.

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Titanic artwork at top of page is owned and copyright of Stuart Williamson and is used with permission.