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Subject: "Titanic 3D model project" Previous topic | Next topic
SteveFuryMon Feb-20-17 07:27 PM
Member since Feb 20th 2017
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#54681, "Titanic 3D model project"
Mon Feb-20-17 07:35 PMby SteveFury

          

Hello, this is my first post.
Thank you for allowing me to join your community.

I've been a Titanic fan for +50 years. I built this little Titanic model about 28 years ago when I was into building RC model boats:


Some specs:
5'2" long
20 (or so) wheat bulbs light up the promenade and decks.
3 fluorescent tubes light up hundreds of windows and port holes.
2 electronic horns
Water worthy, 1 very large 24v motor drives 3 props and a flood alarm. The 4 channel radio has been removed and it has fallen to disrepair over the years (You can see one of the bridge wings have been ripped off & hanging)
It has two major flaws:
(1) A model this size requires about 90lbs ballast. I used 3 large iron pieces within the hull. The model is made with birch plywood and balsa wood. The heavy weight makes it too difficult to transport.
(2) My original design used a quiet serpentine belt to run the outboard props. I opted for a chain instead during construction. The chain makes a lot of noise during operation.

Not to bore you with my past models...This post is about a virtual 3D titanic project I started about a week ago.

I've been doing computer modeling for about 16 years. Done several past CGI titanic models of various accuracy. Here are a few:






I got a 3D headset last month.

I'm completely BLOWN AWAY by this device and enjoy people's various 360 degree 3 dimensional "stuff". Amazing.

I've decided to start a very ambitious, long-term project. I plan to model the boiler rooms, reciprocating, turbine and prop shaft rooms and run a 360 3D camera throughout.
I plan to take my time with this and model as accurately as possible to get a more real feel of how it was. Navigation will probably be like you do with Google Street View.. Click in a certain direction to move down that path. Both reciprocating engines will be running about 60RPM. Go up and down the catwalks and look all around you (360 degrees) etc.

Step into a boiler room, the reciprocating or turbine room and look around (Literally).

I'll need to learn (or get help with) how to create the "click to navigate" software.
My long-term goal is to create an app where the user can just freely roam various parts of the ship. Maybe morph into a sort of game. Maybe operate the throttle. Trim the eccentrics. Reverse the engines.

However I don't know how to create such a game using the 360 3D technology I doubt it will get that far.
Probably just 360 3D YouTube videos.
-If anyone has knowledge how to program a game like that then perhaps we could get together on this.

Here is my first "try" of creating a 3D video. It's not 360, but I used one of the models pictured above to fly the camera from one end to another. As a first try, I discovered the software changes the ratio and makes the images bloated. So the ship appears very fat, but interesting if you have a 3D visor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcoawbwTk-c

I have some other interesting videos & animations there if you care to look: https://www.youtube.com/user/SirSteveFury

I began last week with creating the reciprocating engines.
I'm creating them with documentation found here at titanic-model.com and other web resources.

Here is what I have thus far.
My #1 priority is accuracy.
I won't likely be able to model -all- the piping but I plan to do the majority of it. It would be cool to, at will, illuminate various piping according to function as part of the videos.

Here I modeled the cylinder casings incorrectly. I modeled the piston type valves, not the slide valve casings. So I need to re-model the top end.
I wasn't sure how the throttle valve was operated so I put a common hand wheel link. But I read a bit about the governor and I don't think that throttle link is correct.

I'll need to post various technical questions if I otherwise can't find the answers. Hope you don't mind. The available info at titanic-model.com, especially the embedded links are such an awesome resource!

Here's what I have at the moment.
Notice the incorrect cylinder castings and throttle wheel. Note that nothing is textured. Just green castings, silver pipes, bolts etc:




I'm not sure what color the frame castings should be. I had googled other H&W reciprocating engines and came across a color photo which showed one of a peach color. Cameron choose peach yellow in his movie so I guess that's what I'll go with:


Wish me luck... I have a few questions already.

(1)Does anyone know exactly how the links for the governor went? It must be driven from the crankshaft somewhere. But how was it driven from the crank? Via leather belt, worm gear? Did it use the standard centrifugal swinging ball mech?

Engine operation questions:
(2)I read H&W didn't typically use a gauge cluster board, that the various gauges, valves, wheels & levers were just scattered about. The placement was more of an ease of installation rather than placing things at a central location. Is that true?
(3)I assume the starting platform was on the center of the forward end of the reciprocating room, against the watertight bulkhead of boiler room #1. Am I right?
(4)How high was this platform? Was it on the first level catwalk? On the tank top floor? Is is supposed that was where the telegraphs were located?
What is believed to have existed on this starting platform?
(5)I assume there was no central reversing engine controls. That they were probably located right at the engine units themselves, on each engine. Right? (Kinda relates to question #2)

Sorry for the scattered style of writing.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Feb 21st 2017, #1
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Feb 21st 2017, #2
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Feb 22nd 2017, #3
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Feb 25th 2017, #4
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Feb 25th 2017, #5
RE: Titanic 3D model project, J. Kent Layton, Feb 27th 2017, #6
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 01st 2017, #7
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 01st 2017, #8
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 03rd 2017, #9
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 03rd 2017, #10
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 09th 2017, #11
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 11th 2017, #12
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 12th 2017, #13
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 13th 2017, #14
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 16th 2017, #15
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 17th 2017, #16
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 19th 2017, #17
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 19th 2017, #18
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, Ralph Currell, Mar 23rd 2017, #19
           RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 23rd 2017, #20
                RE: Titanic 3D model project, Ralph Currell, Mar 24th 2017, #21
                     RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 24th 2017, #22
                          RE: Titanic 3D model project, Ralph Currell, Mar 24th 2017, #23
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 25th 2017, #24
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Karol_W, Mar 25th 2017, #25
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 26th 2017, #26
           RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 27th 2017, #27
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 27th 2017, #28

Bill WestTue Feb-21-17 12:24 PM
Member since Feb 02nd 2010
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#54685, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Welcome aboard Steve, it's always nice to see working models.

To help with your questions do you have a copy of TTSM so that we can point to items in it?

Engine plans for the Britannic are at http://hmhsbritannic.weebly.com/plans.html

The governor was drawn in this post http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=49792&mode=full . It is nothing like a flyball governor at all, it uses the inertia of a measuring element mounted on an arm that swings up and down.

A physical starting platform suits an old riverboat and it was revived with turbine engines but for reciprocating engines it is nothing more than an area of the plain engine room floor that is the focal point of the controls. The term is figurative rather than literal. In the Titanic's case it is the floor space on the lowest floor, beside the HP cylinder and between the two engines. The engine controls are hung on the side of the engine and are marked in a picture on pg315 of TTSM-I. The throttle wheel pushes a lever rotating a rod along the engine to another lever that pushes the valve open. There is a large main throttle and a small bypass used for maneuvering. The reverser handle is hung on the side of the reverser. This thread http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=49609&mode=full points to textbooks about the reverser, specifically the responses to replies 21 and 24.

In your third close up view of the end of the engine you show a valve on the top side of the cylinder. This is the top tap point for an "indicator" test. Google steam engine indicator or look in an old text, it's a mechanical pressure recorder with a drum shaped chart. The pipe runs down to a matching valve at the bottom of the cylinder for recording its pressure too. The indicator is attached near the top valve when an acceptance or maintenance performance test is run. Beneath the end of each cylinder is a light linkage that pulls a driving string that rotates the indicator chart with the cylinder stroke. The area of a chart of pressure versus stroke shows the power being developed and reveals mis-set valves, leaking rings, etc.

The dome bottom tub that you had run that indicator tap pipe to is a steam trap for letting condensation out of the cylinders at starting. There are several of these and they connect from their own valves at the points where water can collect in the cylinder, valve and passages.

Two other light linkages beneath the cylinders are the oiling tubes to the crossheads and the drive for the revolution counter at the front side of the engine.

In your screenshots, the one with the semi exploded isometric view showing all the rooms looked very interesting. What software are you using?

Bill

  

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SteveFuryTue Feb-21-17 06:01 PM
Member since Feb 20th 2017
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#54689, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 1
Tue Feb-21-17 06:03 PMby SteveFury

          

Hi Bill.
Thank you so much for all that valuable information and links. I did dozens of google searches across several key words and viewed endless pages for governors connected to cross heads. Thus your post is very much appreciated.
I also browsed all the pages here at TM.com from p50 back to p1 and somehow missed those links. It was great though and I learned a lot.

I can't get a copy of the TTSM quite yet.
For now I'm relying on web searches and online literature for things I don't understand. As a result I know I'll be making a lot of mistakes which should be relatively easy to correct. When I purchase the plans in the future then I should be able to go back in to make changes and re-render them. I'll be posting progress renders now and then and critics are certainly welcome.

I began Newtek's lightwave 3D about 16 years ago purely on a hobby level. The software is phenomenal and was used in production flicks like Avatar etc.
My skills are far from perfect but I keep a good attitude and continue to learn.

This will be maybe my 5th(?) Titanic computer model.
The first one pictured above (In the water with the boat deck) was done to get a good practice with the software. Studying plans to figure out the various passageways between floors and visualize casings is fun and interesting. I wanted a more tangible way to see them so I began building the various rooms based on floor plans from the tank top to A deck.

That model stopped at A deck because I wouldn't be able to do much with the single polygon walls in the future.

The next project was to build another one like the last except to put more details in... hence the next model with boiler rooms with a goal to make photos and 2D videos of the inside. The hull was made, tank top, boilers, main high pressure lines, the pair of reciprocating engines, turbine and tunnel. The main generating room was in progress along with the row of breakers on the adjacent room above.

Then I realized I did so many wild mistakes. I built the layers incorrectly which would have made it time consuming to correct. So I started another one with an improved hull, cut out all the decks and that's as far as I got before I moved onto another project.

Then I got the 3D goggles last month and realized that it was the ultimate way to tour the Titanic. The ability to stand between the two main engines and watch them run, to look over at the auxiliary pumps (etc) to see them working is extremely exciting, So here I go again.

Thanks again Bill for the info and links. I have a lot to digest.
Enough talk, I have cylinders to redo!

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestWed Feb-22-17 02:25 PM
Member since Feb 02nd 2010
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#54691, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 2


          

Good afternoon,

I see that Abebooks has TTSM at pretty reasonable prices ($45), someone seems to have some clearout stock.

If any of our authors are reading here, when I looked to see the current prices I was offered a free PDF copy. As I typed the title Google pushed on and suggested "titanic the ship magnificent pdf download" (drop the quotes). Smelling a rat I tested the automatic redirect in that PDF link. It was okay but I didn't look farther because it looked like I should put a condom on my computer first. A check of the .PW domain offered as the next link found that it is associated with spam or worse. I thought you guys should know about this as a possible criminal pirate problem.

Back to your project Steve, another source you might consider is the Linda Hall Library in Missouri http://www.lindahall.org/ . Their "Services/Document Delivery" will copy and send pages of period journals. They are the heirs of the "Engineering Societies" library (ASCE, ASME, IEEE, etc). I think the price is $16 per citation for up to 50 pages plus $3 USPS 1st class or $22 FedEx 3day shipping. I asked for and got folded 11x17" copies of large plates (insert pages). Get photocopies not email PDFs and then scan them at a suitable resolution. The emailed PDFs have to be moderate resolution because of email attachment size limits. An online catalogue is available.

More detailed engine drawings than the French ones I linked to before are in:
Engineering (London 1866- ) Vol 97 1914.
ISSN: 0013-7782
Feb 27th issue, 'White Star Steamer "Britannic"', pages 273-283 and plates.
The article covers hull & machinery, engine/turbine plans, deck plans, launch.

The other entries of interest in "Engineering" that I know of are:
vol 90 1910
-Jul 1 pg 14-15 Welin Davits
-Oct 21 pg 564-572 Olympic -hull & machinery
-Nov 10 pg 620-621 Olympic -hull & machinery
-Nov 18 pg 693(and facing plates!) -695, 698 Olympic -hull & machinery, boiler/engine/turbine/electric room plans
vol 91 1911
-May 26 pg 678-679 Olympic(despite article title/lead on Titanic) -general arrangement, deck plans
-Jun 2 pg 734 Titanic -launch announcement
-Jun 16 pg 789-792?? Olympic -accommodation
vol 93 1912
-Jun 14 pg 802-806 Titanic Inquiry -deck plans
-Jun 21 pg 847-850 Titanic Inquiry
-Jun 28 pg 884 Titanic Inquiry
vol 94 1912
-Jul 5 pg 3-12 Harland & Wolff -facilities
-Jul 12 pg 38-51 Harland & Wolff -facilities
-Aug 2 pg 154-157, 166 Belfast graving dock
-Aug 16 pg 237 Olympic -rebuttal letter on steering problem
-Aug 16 pg 239-241 Belfast graving dock
-Aug 23 pg 266-268 Safety Appliances at Sea Report -ice route map
Most of the drawings in these are the ones found online.

A detail to be careful about when working from the Britannic drawings is that the change to piston valves caused the LP exhaust pipe to be moved slightly.

Bill

  

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SteveFurySat Feb-25-17 01:28 AM
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#54696, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Can anyone please view these valve gears and verify if they are built correctly? Particularly the connection on the control "See saw" link to the valve rods:








Thank you.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestSat Feb-25-17 02:36 AM
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#54697, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 4


          

Hi Steve, excellent graphics.
The eccentric link (the horizontal arched piece) is two duplicate bars. An end view of the eccentric shows in the cylinder drawings on the Britannic drawing link. Its two rectangular bars are encased in brass guides on the end of the valve stem.

A fine machinist has been building 3 working engines in 1:48. Do an advanced search for author Atlantic Run in both the Discussion and Model Photos forums. Two of the posts that show his valve gear are:
http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=51164&mode=full
http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=52783&mesg_id=52783&listing_type=search

Sorry, I'm away for 3 days, we can resume this Wednesday.

Bill

  

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J. Kent LaytonMon Feb-27-17 02:57 PM
Member since Dec 19th 2004
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#54708, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

Beautiful work, Steve. I'm looking forward to seeing updates!

Regards,
J. Kent Layton
www.atlanticliners.com

  

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SteveFuryWed Mar-01-17 05:03 PM
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#54727, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Thank you for the compliments.
Here I've added the HP to IP, the IP to LP and the LP to LP piping. Along with some other various piping.

I changed the valve gearing to what I believe to be the correct type and began modeling the reversing engine. I'll definitely have to redo those cylinder tops:









If the various pipes, controls and linkages are reasonably correct on this model then I'll base some of it on mine- The ones I can't locate on the various diagrams I've acquired:


Thank you,

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestWed Mar-01-17 06:33 PM
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#54728, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 7


          

Hi Steve, the valve gear is coming along well. You are helping us understand how the pieces go together.

For the engine control and piping details, in a polite nutshell none of those on Mr. Pohlmann's model are accurate. At the time that model was built good drawings had not been circulated so it appears he did the best he could with "typical" details. H&W's details however were not the same as smaller engines of the era. I assume you saw the rest of the pictures here http://titanic-model.com/db/db-03/hahn.html

Bill

  

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SteveFuryFri Mar-03-17 05:36 AM
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#54731, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Thanks for the information about Hahn's amazing model. I can't even imagine the amount of time, skill and resources involved.

Given that information, I plan to model what I can recognize from readily available resources and leave the other out until I can acquire more detailed drawings.

I came across the Brown's reversing gear which was said to be on the Olympic class liners:


I've spent some time researching its operation and studying the diagrams and came up with this representation:


I noticed that I'll need to re-scale and lower it to better match the photo below, and adjust the mounting design. Also notice the man's height which shows the size of these machines. He would not have been able to reach the reversing gear controls. That makes me believe there must have been some form of catwalk or platform needed to reach the controls:


Here are a few more renders.
*The lever on the left controlled the direction and trim of the eccentrics. You'd squeeze the handle and its release latch, then move it to the proper trim.
*If there were no steam to power the unit, the eccentrics could still be moved by manually pumping the lever on the Right (Shown sticking out at 90 degrees.
*If manual pumping was necessary, a valve (Shown near the center between the two levers) was switched to move the eccentrics to forward or revers.
-The bottom cylinder was the primary mover of the eccentrics. The top hydraulic cylinder dampened the movement to make it smooth. The top cylinder was also used along with the pump to manually move the eccentrics:



Please keep in mind that all of this is only my personal interpretations based on the information I have. A lot of other folks here at TM.com are far more knowledgeable than myself and I'm hoping errors can be pointed out. If the error is major enough then I'm most appreciative and to process the changes.
Thanks,

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestFri Mar-03-17 08:40 PM
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#54735, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 9


          

Looking good Steve, lots of fine detail there. The reverser drawing is the one I used too, in my first reply above. The comments I made in the post linked to should be gone over however, there's quite a bit of size and detail to adjust from that drawing. Basically the reverser should be flipped for the port engine.

The floors were raised 5' above the tank top in the engine room and 3.5' in the boiler rooms, that's what made the controls reachable.

Bill

  

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SteveFuryThu Mar-09-17 08:54 PM
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#54758, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Mar-09-17 08:54 PMby SteveFury

          

I'm going to say the reciprocating engines are about done except for a few things like texturing and some piping. Some things like the throttle, gauges etc are left out until I can acquire an accurate plan.

Here I added some cat walks. They'll need to be adjusted to conform to the shape of the engine room. It will be imperative to render in 360 degree view due to the tightness of the engine room. As for now, my engine sits in a square of corrugated steel.

I'm not sure if these lamps are accurate or not but I needed to find a way to illuminate the otherwise dark crankshaft area.

Once this port side engine is completed then I'll mirror it to the starboard side:







Thanks for looking.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestSat Mar-11-17 01:15 AM
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#54769, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 11


          

Very good approach to lighting Steve. Most renditions give the room modern lighting qualities when in fact your distributed light bulb approach is closer to 1912 reality.

The walkways are just below cylinder top, at the cylinder bottom and at the midpoint between there and the engine room floor. The midpoint walkway gives access to the valve gear. From the aft end of the room two parallel stairways between the engines access the walkways as the stairs descend from the engine room entrance on deck E to the e/r floor. Almost makes a grand staircase.

Bill

  

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SteveFurySun Mar-12-17 08:04 PM
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#54780, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Thank you for the info Bill.

Below is my latest.

First is the empty, un-textured reciprocating room:




Further progress:





I'll probably try to figure out the catwalks next.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestMon Mar-13-17 12:05 AM
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#54781, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 13


          

Excellent Steve, that's even more realistic looking than the movie.
An optional detail, there are three 15" I beams crossing the room 5' above G deck. Each one passes on the aft side of one of the centerline columns. A similar beam meets them, running fore and aft between the columns. A 6' x 3' triangular gusset reaches forward from D deck into the skylight area to cap the forward column. The novelty of the cross beams is that they are threaded between the engine cylinders, building the room and the engines was an interlocking project.

Bill

  

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SteveFuryThu Mar-16-17 05:50 AM
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#54795, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Here is my progress.
Thanks Bill, I've introduced the I-beams. I assume those would have been used with a block and tackle if emergency engine repair was necessary at sea
It was -extremly- tight getting the center one between the HP and IP cylinders:



Here's a couple quick test renders.
Note the general lighting which will change back to the individual incandescent when finished.

Below is a view out of what will be the Engineers mess on E deck:



And the main floor:



Below is my plan for the catwalks. I see some errors there after I made the graphic.
I am hoping it is generally correct. Particularly where the catwalks go all the way forward and aft, port and starboard.

They begin from the two opposite doors on E deck. Two stairs cascade down from E deck to the upper level catwalk at cylinder height. A pair of stairs against the after wall lead down to the middle catwalk and also down to the lower catwalk.
A pair of stairs lead into the center of the engine room as can be seen in the famous Britanic engine room construction photo:



This is how my engine room lined up wit the floors:

E deck is well above the cylinder tops.
F deck lines up pretty close to the cylinder tops. That will be my upper catwalk.
G deck lines up with the middle catwalk.
The Orlop deck along with its Brine room overhang lines up with the lower catwalk.

Other ladders/catwalks will run from the engine room floor up to the Orlop against the port wall. Ladders/catwalks up the forward bulkhead up to the pre-heater and further up the chase.

Please let me know if this is completely wrong.

Thanks!

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestFri Mar-17-17 12:55 AM
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#54798, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 15


          

That's the first time I've seen those beams portrayed, thanks. The view at the top of the engine is also good, reminds me of the shot at the top of the Ceramic's engine.

Lighting
Art's model reminded me of some information on the Olympic's lighting levels that Ralph posted from an old magazine, http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=34848&mode=full . It suggests 30w lights on 8' centers and two 1000w lights. I suggested a translation to modern values of 15w (and 500w) in http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=41480&mesg_id=41480 .

We also had a discussion on this over an engine room picture on the Lusitania. http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=40730&mode=full posts 11 and 17. My feeling was that the photo was over lit for camera purposes. So bear that in mind in looking at this picture in the Olympic's engine room http://marconigraph.com/titanic/electrician/elec_110728_4.html . That's the forward center room column with the phones on it and the shaft forward of it is an electric winch for repair work.

Hoists
There is a bridge crane hanging from two rails on the ceiling over each engine for taking the cylinder heads and pistons off. In the archway on the side of each engine frame is an eye bolt rolling on an I beam from over each crank pin to the aisle between the two engines for taking the big end apart.

Catwalks
Your sketches are a good way to go over this. I started to check them and had a snag however, the room shape in your end view didn't seem to fit. Look at the aft facing view in this thread http://www.titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=32082&mode=full . The beam appearance shown across at the lower deck level is likely just the reinforcement on the turbine room bulkhead and the feed heater is incorrectly shown at the wrong end of the room.

The top catwalk is just below cylinder top and then takes a small jog down forward of the aft LP cylinder.
The middle catwalk is mainly on the outer side of the engine. It is laid on top of the lower flange of the room I beams and only runs between the first and third cross beams. At the forward LP cylinder a stair down from the inside top catwalk services a short section running on the inner side of the engine to the top of the steam separators.
The bottom catwalk wraps around the engine rather than the room.

The Engineering drawings from the Linda Hall Library would really help here because there is a bunch of guessing involved.

Bill

  

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SteveFurySun Mar-19-17 11:19 AM
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#54804, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Here's a friendly note to anyone trying to do an accurate recip room: Be certain your engine dimensions are correct, especially as it relates to the floor levels!
Mine were wrong and I had to do a lot of time consuming adjustments to both the room and engines.

Thanks, as always Bill for the input.
I spent many hours configuring the catwalks in a logical way given your suggestions. Those big LP pipes going to the turbine room kept getting in the way.
I eventually gave up trying to figure a cascading style stairs and just opted for a 23 foot stair from E deck level all the way down to the bottom catwalk.
23 feet is a very long stair indeed but I've seen some really long catwalk stairs. At least that's my rationale.
If I ever can get an actual plan then it's easy enough to make adjustments.



I had based the design of the walkways on this photo. It looks like to me that they are individual panels fastened together:



I think this project is coming along well. I need to research early 1900 overhead electric gantry winches for a good design and put them above the cylinders as Bill has suggested.

I'm not happy with the general lighting in the photos below, and the catwalks need railings, the walkways under the cylinders for the valve gear access etc... - Here's my latest tests:

Space view:


Port side facing Aft with the Brine room overhang:


Forward facing aft. Notice the long stairs from the lower catwalk up to the level of E deck:


Facing aft. E deck main hall on the left, Engineers mess on the right. I'll probably put a window or two in the wall for the engineers mess:


Thank you for looking, and for any comments you may have.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestSun Mar-19-17 01:21 PM
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#54805, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 17


          

This is getting to be extremely realistic, you're doing more for visualizing this than any work I've seen before!

Some observations:
-I think the catwalks are built just from rails & rods, no mesh. Omitting it will improve the visibility in your drawings.
-How about if the E deck entry steps down from sides to the level of the cylinder tops before crossing the back of the room?
-I do think the main stairs run from the top catwalk level to the middle then middle to the lower catwalk and do so between the back of the room and the aft room column. Then the lower catwalk to the floor section is between the aft and middle room columns. I think it accounts for one of the stairs that you have drawn on the outside of the engines. The first picture in this post is poor but I think it shows just enough of how the stairs descended. https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/community/threads/engine-crankcase-dwg-accessories-and-steering-engine.30643/ . The drawing is from The Shipbuilder magazine reprint. Reduced resolution drawings are also shown at Robert Hahn's site http://www.titanic-plan.de/i_HW_plans_e.html

-When you create the little step stairs that access the valve gear, add one over the crankshaft at the middle of the engine. It just shows in a Britannic shop picture and I think it was the shortcut between the pump areas and the starting platform area when things went wrong.
-You're being observant about catching the pipe from the LP exhaust to the balance pistons on top of the LP valve chests. The pipe extends between the two balance pistons too.
-The governor is on the aft side of the IP cylinder frame facing the aft LP cylinder frame. Maybe my article was a bit vague.
-I'd be doubtful about having windows from the engineers mess.
-The overhead gantry was chain operated, fore/aft travel, cross travel on a shared positioning screw and 2 hoists on the gantry. Some of the room plans give the general appearance.

Bill

  

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Ralph CurrellThu Mar-23-17 04:05 PM
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#54810, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 18


          

Hi Steve,

I've been following this project with interest. Your work so far is very impressive.

I took some time to try to figure out the grating and ladder arrangement and it's pretty tricky, especially if the pipes are taken into consideration. Here's what I have so far:



There are probably elements that don't appear on the plans, such as cross-platforms between the two engines. One thing that surprised me is how little space there is between the outboard sides of the engines and the ship's structure.

If time permits I'll work on a more detailed layout. Perhaps a series of plan views for each level is the best way of presenting this.

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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Bill WestThu Mar-23-17 11:15 PM
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#54812, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 19


          

That's very helpful Ralph. What type of program are you using, graphics, CAD, 3D, isometric?
My only comment is that in the green catwalks I think the aft stair and middle walks are on the outboard side. The Engineering Britannic plans look like they have dashed lines where these pass behind the engine columns and cylinder bases.
Your speculative walk across the front of the engine would have been a good idea for connecting the engineer's stores to the workshop but I think the main steam strainers will block the middle part of the walk, limiting it to engine access purposes.

Bill

  

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Ralph CurrellFri Mar-24-17 10:28 AM
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#54813, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 20


          

Hi Bill,

I did that in 2D (CorelDraw) using isometric projection (I think that's the right term -- it's been a long time since high school drafting class).

You're quite right that that green ladder and gratings are incorrect. I'm having a bit of trouble deciding where they ought to go though. I've sketched a couple of possibilities, one inboard and one outboard, but space is pretty tight either way. What do you think?



It's hard to see on my earlier diagram, but the yellow gratings at the forward bulkhead are separate (one accessible from below and the other from above) for the very reason you pointed out; the steam separator and pipes would prevent their being connected.

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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Bill WestFri Mar-24-17 12:21 PM
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#54814, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 21


          

Hi Ralph,

I could see an outboard catwalk location as a crawl space for servicing the IP-LP steam pipes and the various auxiliary steam pipes up there. But in looking back at my source drawings I'm no longer convinced about hidden lines so I'm going to go with your inboard choice. We sure need the views drawn and the 3D too, complete with piping info to really tell what is going on here.

An aside, especially for Steve, I was reminded that there is a 6' deep vertical plate acting as a stiffener at the aft bulkhead. It is on the ship centerline and has angle irons on the leading edge making it an I beam on end. There is also a vertical channel, about 8", just like a ship rib on the starboard side at the 3' mark. This vertical beam splits the 2 hydraulic pumps, one is hung on each side of this beam. The fore- aft I beam that runs between the engines terminates at this vertical beam with a 3' L x 2' H concave curved gusset downwards.

A 2' 9" deep horizontal plate mounted 17'9" above the working floor also stiffens the aft bulkhead. It has a bulb channel about 12" H on the upper front edge and a plain channel about 10"H on the lower front edge. Triangular gussets 3'6" H support the horizontal plate from below.

Bill

  

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Ralph CurrellFri Mar-24-17 02:27 PM
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#54815, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 22


          

Hi Bill,

I'll draw some plan views which may make it easier to visualize. It would probably be best if I start a new forum topic so as not to hijack Steve's project thread.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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SteveFurySat Mar-25-17 03:28 PM
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#54818, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Mar-25-17 03:47 PMby SteveFury

          

Thank you all SO MUCH for the input. It is very much appreciated and please don't worry about hijacking my thread. If it's OK, I'd rather have the pertinent information here rather than elsewhere.

Ralph, I love your drawing a lot. Thank you -so- much.
Please let me know if you believe it to be correct and I'll go with that one.

With the discussion about a possible catwalk located between the 3 I-beams on the inboard side of the engine (under the LP pipe), it is not doable. There is simply no room. Nobody could go there.
I built those once but discovered the problem and eliminated them.
Currently, the middle catwalk in the center of the room is nothing more than a platform for the main staircase. If a catwalk exists at that place then it would need to run further out from the engine, toward the centerline of the room.

I've been very busy with this. These are my current catwalks but will be most happy to re-do them once we figure them out. I'm trying to work out lighting locations. The "firefly" white flairs are simply lighting location tests. I've removed all of the light fixtures until they are worked out.

Some of the colors are wrong, I have a zillion corrections to do but I'm satisfied with thus far:











Below is my floors-to-room alignment.
I allotted 1ft for floor thickness:
8' From Tank Top to Orlop.
17' From Tank Top to G.
8' G
8'6" F
9' E
44'6" Tank Top to ceiling of D
I had adjusted the height of the engine columns and cylinders to fit those figures. Cylinder tops to the ER floor is 32':



There is just enough room to fit a catwalk between the IP piping and F deck. Although it wouldn't be my favorite pathway.

On the forward end of the upper catwalk:
I had ran a short ladder down to a landing against the fwd bulkhead, then ran a pair of stairs port and starboard down to a level where the separators will be.
I don't think that's right.
The platform which is supposed to service the separators interfere with the WTD cylinders:


Below is a top-down view of the area.
I can see that I'll need to point the engine's HP input pipe more toward the center of the room for things to fit.

However you can see the stairs coming down from amid ship.
The presence of those stairs and platforms against the fwd WTB will probably interfere later on with the piping.

It would be just as reasonable to access the separators via the lower catwalk. I'm not sure which way to go. What would you do?


Another issue I just noticed:
If I move the HP pipe closer to the center of the room, it will place the separators close one to another. Plus I'll need to make enough space between the starboard separator and the WTD to allow for the blow-off valve and its hanging operation wheel.

I'll probably have to move the engines outward, away from the centerline along with the WTD to make room for the separators. I don't have the diameter of the input HP pipe. I could also scale that down a little to help.

Question.
Is there a ladder from the catwalk on E deck up to the Boat deck?
I see doors on the engine room casing on A deck (To a Tank room), and on Boat deck to two Tank rooms.
I've read references to a ladder running up through the middle of funnel #4. Is that the same ladder?

I have gained a huge amount of respect for the original designers. I can't imagine trying to design all of this without CAD. And then expect everything to actually work.

Thanks everyone!

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Karol_WSat Mar-25-17 04:17 PM
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#54820, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 24
Sat Mar-25-17 04:19 PMby Karol_W

          

Good Evening Steve.

On the forward end of the upper catwalk:
I had ran a short ladder down to a landing against the fwd bulkhead, then ran a pair of stairs port and starboard down to a level where the separators will be.
I don't think that's right.
The platform which is supposed to service the separators interfere with the WTD cylinders:



Below is a top-down view of the area.
I can see that I'll need to point the engine's HP input pipe more toward the center of the room for things to fit.

However you can see the stairs coming down from amid ship.
The presence of those stairs and platforms against the fwd WTB will probably interfere later on with the piping.

It would be just as reasonable to access the separators via the lower catwalk. I'm not sure which way to go. What would you do?


I suppose this catwalk was intended to access the valves on top of separators, am i right?

If so, it would not be possible to do in that way, because Main bulkhead valves for Main Steam Lines and cross connection between them would colide with it. Based on Britannic engines plans from 'Engineering', there were a stairs leading from cylinders covers catwalk down to the level of cross beams on F deck, where there was a cross catwalk for servicing Main Steam and Cross-connection Valves.

Orange catwalk titled 'To Main Steam Valves' with white arrows is for this purpose.



Is there a ladder from the catwalk on E deck up to the Boat deck?
I see doors on the engine room casing on A deck (To a Tank room), and on Boat deck to two Tank rooms.
I've read references to a ladder running up through the middle of funnel #4. Is that the same ladder?


There were a series of stairs, ladders and catwalks leading from cylinders covers catwalks up to the Boat Deck level. Their exact arragement is not known.

In term of 4th funnel - i do not think that there would be a simple ladder for access to funnel top. It is more reasonable to place a stairs there, mainly for safety reasons.

Below is a photograph of Engine Room casing under 3rd funnel of SS Belgenland. It gives a good impression of how the Engine Room casing on Titanic would look like.



BTW: As we can see all stairs in Engine Room area have a steel white painted covers on underside. This was to avoid accidents where something would fall on the heads of Engineers working on Starting Platform, when somebody would drop something on those stairs.

Regards,

Karol

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Bill WestSun Mar-26-17 01:18 PM
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#54824, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 25


          

Very impressive Steve. I like the overhead cranes too.

I'll try to help with the room dimensions later, right now I'm on my third day of trying to clear 30 years of car parts out of my garage, I've got 2 truckloads so far :) . In the evening I've been working on a rough piping schematic for the tank top. Does your graphics program allow overlaying jpg scans of the various existing drawings we are using? I'm thinking that tracing would be the simplest way to scale room dimensions, main steam pipe locations and the engine's slight upward/outward slope to the stern. The frame spacing of 3' in this area gives a fairly long ruler for correctly adjusting the jpg scaling.

Another engine casing sample is the one from the Mauretania http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=40730&mesg_id=40840 . I think the Turbine room casing might be similar, at least as far up as the boat deck. I can't clearly see whether they are using stairs or ladders between the levels. Whichever is used, the only practical starting point would be the top catwalks on the engines.

The original designers had help in the form of the office, shop and fitting out berth all being within a few hundred yards of each other. The drawing note "shop to fit to suit" always helps too :) .Most basically past experience would have made them wise to what to look out for in the way of potential conflicts. None the less I'm sure they had lots of "Oh dam" moments.

Bill

  

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Bill WestMon Mar-27-17 12:21 AM
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#54826, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 26
Mon Mar-27-17 11:42 AMby Bill West

          

Hi Steve, I read the midship deck heights as follows. This largely comes from TTSM. There are some offsets in deck height at a few odd places (pool, fore peak) and the plating & beam heights do vary.

v---part of the vertical spacing figures
.......... v-----not part of the spacing figures

------Roof decking 2.5" wood
0'----This is the roof on the Boat deck's deckhouses.
------Roof 4" beam height
------
------Boat decking 3" wood
8.25' Boat deck height, beam top to beam top above.
------Boat 6" beam height
------
------A Litosilo finish
------A decking 0 .26" deck, 0.36"-0.38"? margin plate/stringer at side
9.5' A Promenade deck height, beam top to beam top above.
------A 7.5" beam height
------
------B Litosilo finish
------B decking 0.74" deck, 0.60" margin plate/stringer at side
9' B Bridge deck height, beam top to beam top above.
------B 9" beam height
------
------C 2" Litosilo finish
------C decking , 0.60" margin plate/stringer at side
9' C Shelter deck height, beam top to beam top above.
------C 9" beam height
------
------D Litosilo finish
------D decking , 0.60" margin plate/stringer at side
10.5' D Saloon deck height, beam top to beam top above. This is the galley and dining room.
------D 9" beam height
------
------E 2" Litosilo finish
------E decking 0.36" deck, 0.60" margin plate/stringer at side
9' E Upper deck height, beam top to beam top above. This is Scotland road.
------E 9" beam height
------
------F Litosilo finish
------F decking 0.36" deck, 0.60" margin plate/stringer at side
8.5' F Middle deck height, beam top to beam top above. This is 3rd class dining.
------F 10" beam height
------
------G Litosilo finish
------G decking 0.40" deck, 0.60" margin plate/stringer at side
8' G Lower deck height, beam top to beam top above.
------G 15" beam height
------
------Orlop deck height is 8', here it is part of the boiler room's 23' figure
------
------2'-7.5"' to the top of the diamond plate decking. 5' in the engine room.
------Boiler room's 0.80" tank top plating, in the Engine room it is as much as 1.125".
23'* Boiler room height from the top of the tank frame at the centerline to the top of the G deck beam at the ship's side
5.25' tank frame, 6.25' in the engine room. I think the bottom of this is the "base line" and is the start for moulded depth.
1.5" keel plate, the hull plating connects to this.
3" keel rub bar, counts in draft figures.

*-Add 3" camber to the deck beam at the ship's centerline. The camber is virtually a radius.
-This deck's height is the one that varies with sheer. The figure here is the low point at frame 24A (BR-1). At midships where the freeboard is figured (frames 1A-1F, BR-2) it is 4.5" higher. The actual curve for the sheer has not been worked out. The GRT calculations suggest that it may be flat from Boiler Room 1 through the Turbine room. I think if that is not true it will still only be an error of an inch or two so it is plenty good enough for your Engine Room rendering. With the difference in tank frame heights we get 22' tank frame top to G deck beam top (at side) in the engine room.

For the angles on the engine centerline this post http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=52225&mesg_id=52269 leads to these positions for the crankshafts passing through the aft engine room bulkhead and projecting to the forward bulkhead:
-at forward bulkhead K/frame 30A the shaft is 12' 1.3" above the hull base line and 16' 4.634" off the ship centerline
-at aft bulkhead L/frame 53A the shaft is 12' 1-3/8" above the hull base line and 16' 11" off the ship centerline
The 2-3" filler allowed between the tank top plating and the engine base for levelling will account for any difference between the resulting engine base level and the tank top level.

Bill

edit 1 -ER floor thickness was "1.25"
edit 2 -Bulkhead L was "forward"

  

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SteveFuryMon Mar-27-17 05:45 AM
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#54828, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Mar-27-17 05:48 AMby SteveFury

          

Thanks Karol for the wonderful catwalk diagrams.
I'm thinking it may be better for me to get some of the piping in before redoing the catwalks. Maybe it might cut down on redoing some things. It will also give me some time to fully asses what you've posted.

Thanks Bill for all your input.
Yes, my software does allow background images. I'm currently working on the forward bulkhead pipes and equipment. You can see below that I've uncluttered a popular diagram for that purpose:



The problem I had with alignment before was mainly caused by a badly scaled WTD system. My new door now fits the background diagram above. I didn't realize they were so short! I thought they were normal door height but these passage openings are only about 5'6" tall. Lots of bumped heads!

I located some detailed piping schematics here at TM. I can figure out some of the pipe routing based on those documents but any input you can give is very appreciated.

Below is a couple examples of some work last weekend.
I re-did the centerline connections on the rooms I-beams:







Regarding the large bypass valve between the two separators- I am unclear about the linkage so I've left it off for now.

Also, it is doubtful that all the hand wheels were red. Probably color coded to function (IE feedwater, HP & regulated steam etc). The red just gives them a bit of color and is easily changed later.

Thanks for looking.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Titanic artwork at top of page is owned and copyright of Stuart Williamson and is used with permission.