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Subject: "Titanic 3D model project" Previous topic | Next topic
SteveFuryMon Feb-20-17 07:27 PM
Member since Feb 20th 2017
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#54681, "Titanic 3D model project"
Mon Feb-20-17 07:35 PMby SteveFury

          

Hello, this is my first post.
Thank you for allowing me to join your community.

I've been a Titanic fan for +50 years. I built this little Titanic model about 28 years ago when I was into building RC model boats:


Some specs:
5'2" long
20 (or so) wheat bulbs light up the promenade and decks.
3 fluorescent tubes light up hundreds of windows and port holes.
2 electronic horns
Water worthy, 1 very large 24v motor drives 3 props and a flood alarm. The 4 channel radio has been removed and it has fallen to disrepair over the years (You can see one of the bridge wings have been ripped off & hanging)
It has two major flaws:
(1) A model this size requires about 90lbs ballast. I used 3 large iron pieces within the hull. The model is made with birch plywood and balsa wood. The heavy weight makes it too difficult to transport.
(2) My original design used a quiet serpentine belt to run the outboard props. I opted for a chain instead during construction. The chain makes a lot of noise during operation.

Not to bore you with my past models...This post is about a virtual 3D titanic project I started about a week ago.

I've been doing computer modeling for about 16 years. Done several past CGI titanic models of various accuracy. Here are a few:






I got a 3D headset last month.

I'm completely BLOWN AWAY by this device and enjoy people's various 360 degree 3 dimensional "stuff". Amazing.

I've decided to start a very ambitious, long-term project. I plan to model the boiler rooms, reciprocating, turbine and prop shaft rooms and run a 360 3D camera throughout.
I plan to take my time with this and model as accurately as possible to get a more real feel of how it was. Navigation will probably be like you do with Google Street View.. Click in a certain direction to move down that path. Both reciprocating engines will be running about 60RPM. Go up and down the catwalks and look all around you (360 degrees) etc.

Step into a boiler room, the reciprocating or turbine room and look around (Literally).

I'll need to learn (or get help with) how to create the "click to navigate" software.
My long-term goal is to create an app where the user can just freely roam various parts of the ship. Maybe morph into a sort of game. Maybe operate the throttle. Trim the eccentrics. Reverse the engines.

However I don't know how to create such a game using the 360 3D technology I doubt it will get that far.
Probably just 360 3D YouTube videos.
-If anyone has knowledge how to program a game like that then perhaps we could get together on this.

Here is my first "try" of creating a 3D video. It's not 360, but I used one of the models pictured above to fly the camera from one end to another. As a first try, I discovered the software changes the ratio and makes the images bloated. So the ship appears very fat, but interesting if you have a 3D visor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcoawbwTk-c

I have some other interesting videos & animations there if you care to look: https://www.youtube.com/user/SirSteveFury

I began last week with creating the reciprocating engines.
I'm creating them with documentation found here at titanic-model.com and other web resources.

Here is what I have thus far.
My #1 priority is accuracy.
I won't likely be able to model -all- the piping but I plan to do the majority of it. It would be cool to, at will, illuminate various piping according to function as part of the videos.

Here I modeled the cylinder casings incorrectly. I modeled the piston type valves, not the slide valve casings. So I need to re-model the top end.
I wasn't sure how the throttle valve was operated so I put a common hand wheel link. But I read a bit about the governor and I don't think that throttle link is correct.

I'll need to post various technical questions if I otherwise can't find the answers. Hope you don't mind. The available info at titanic-model.com, especially the embedded links are such an awesome resource!

Here's what I have at the moment.
Notice the incorrect cylinder castings and throttle wheel. Note that nothing is textured. Just green castings, silver pipes, bolts etc:




I'm not sure what color the frame castings should be. I had googled other H&W reciprocating engines and came across a color photo which showed one of a peach color. Cameron choose peach yellow in his movie so I guess that's what I'll go with:


Wish me luck... I have a few questions already.

(1)Does anyone know exactly how the links for the governor went? It must be driven from the crankshaft somewhere. But how was it driven from the crank? Via leather belt, worm gear? Did it use the standard centrifugal swinging ball mech?

Engine operation questions:
(2)I read H&W didn't typically use a gauge cluster board, that the various gauges, valves, wheels & levers were just scattered about. The placement was more of an ease of installation rather than placing things at a central location. Is that true?
(3)I assume the starting platform was on the center of the forward end of the reciprocating room, against the watertight bulkhead of boiler room #1. Am I right?
(4)How high was this platform? Was it on the first level catwalk? On the tank top floor? Is is supposed that was where the telegraphs were located?
What is believed to have existed on this starting platform?
(5)I assume there was no central reversing engine controls. That they were probably located right at the engine units themselves, on each engine. Right? (Kinda relates to question #2)

Sorry for the scattered style of writing.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Feb 21st 2017, #1
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Feb 21st 2017, #2
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Feb 22nd 2017, #3
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, May 31st 2017, #119
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Feb 25th 2017, #4
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Feb 25th 2017, #5
RE: Titanic 3D model project, J. Kent Layton, Feb 27th 2017, #6
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 01st 2017, #7
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 01st 2017, #8
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 03rd 2017, #9
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 03rd 2017, #10
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 09th 2017, #11
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 11th 2017, #12
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 12th 2017, #13
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 13th 2017, #14
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 16th 2017, #15
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 17th 2017, #16
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 19th 2017, #17
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 19th 2017, #18
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, Ralph Currell, Mar 23rd 2017, #19
           RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 23rd 2017, #20
                RE: Titanic 3D model project, Ralph Currell, Mar 24th 2017, #21
                     RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 24th 2017, #22
                          RE: Titanic 3D model project, Ralph Currell, Mar 24th 2017, #23
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 25th 2017, #24
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Karol_W, Mar 25th 2017, #25
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 26th 2017, #26
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 27th 2017, #27
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Scott Andrews, Jun 25th 2017, #127
      RE: More regarding WTD at WTB "K", Scott Andrews, Jun 26th 2017, #128
           RE: More regarding WTD at WTB , SteveFury, Jun 28th 2017, #129
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 27th 2017, #28
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 27th 2017, #29
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 28th 2017, #30
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 30th 2017, #31
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 30th 2017, #32
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 30th 2017, #33
           RE: Titanic 3D model project, Karol_W, Mar 30th 2017, #34
                RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 30th 2017, #35
                     RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 30th 2017, #36
                          RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Mar 30th 2017, #37
                               RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 30th 2017, #38
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Mar 31st 2017, #39
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 02nd 2017, #40
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, tucky, Apr 02nd 2017, #41
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Apr 03rd 2017, #42
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 04th 2017, #43
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Apr 04th 2017, #44
RE: Titanic 3D model project, tucky, Apr 04th 2017, #45
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 04th 2017, #46
           RE: Titanic 3D model project, tucky, Apr 04th 2017, #47
                RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 05th 2017, #48
                     RE: Titanic 3D model project, tucky, Apr 05th 2017, #49
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Apr 08th 2017, #50
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Karol_W, Apr 09th 2017, #51
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 09th 2017, #52
           RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Apr 10th 2017, #53
                RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 10th 2017, #55
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Apr 10th 2017, #54
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 11th 2017, #56
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Apr 11th 2017, #57
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, Ralph Currell, Apr 11th 2017, #58
           RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 11th 2017, #59
                RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 11th 2017, #60
                     RE: Titanic 3D model project, Ralph Currell, Apr 11th 2017, #61
                          RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 11th 2017, #62
                               RE: Titanic 3D model project, Ralph Currell, Apr 13th 2017, #63
                                    RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 13th 2017, #64
                                         RE: Titanic 3D model project, Ralph Currell, Apr 13th 2017, #65
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Apr 14th 2017, #66
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Karol_W, Apr 15th 2017, #67
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 15th 2017, #68
           RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Apr 16th 2017, #69
                RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 16th 2017, #70
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Apr 18th 2017, #71
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 19th 2017, #72
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Apr 19th 2017, #73
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Apr 23rd 2017, #74
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 23rd 2017, #75
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Apr 23rd 2017, #76
           RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Apr 24th 2017, #77
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Apr 30th 2017, #78
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 01st 2017, #79
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, May 01st 2017, #80
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 02nd 2017, #81
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, May 06th 2017, #82
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 09th 2017, #85
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, May 07th 2017, #83
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Ralph Currell, May 08th 2017, #84
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 09th 2017, #86
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, May 10th 2017, #87
           RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, May 10th 2017, #88
                RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 10th 2017, #89
                     RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 10th 2017, #91
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Scott Andrews, May 10th 2017, #90
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, May 11th 2017, #92
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 11th 2017, #93
           RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 12th 2017, #94
                RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 12th 2017, #95
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Jul 12th 2017, #130
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, May 13th 2017, #96
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 14th 2017, #97
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, May 15th 2017, #98
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 16th 2017, #99
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Ralph Currell, May 16th 2017, #100
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, May 16th 2017, #101
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 16th 2017, #102
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Ralph Currell, May 16th 2017, #103
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, May 17th 2017, #104
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 17th 2017, #105
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 18th 2017, #106
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 18th 2017, #107
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, May 19th 2017, #108
      RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 20th 2017, #109
           RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, May 20th 2017, #110
                RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 21st 2017, #111
                RE: Titanic 3D model project, Scott Andrews, May 24th 2017, #112
                     RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, May 24th 2017, #113
                          RE: Titanic 3D model project, William W. Young, May 24th 2017, #114
                          RE: Titanic 3D model project, Scott Andrews, May 28th 2017, #116
                               RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, May 29th 2017, #117
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveHall, May 27th 2017, #115
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, May 30th 2017, #118
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Ralph Currell, Jun 01st 2017, #120
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Jun 01st 2017, #121
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Jun 02nd 2017, #122
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Jun 05th 2017, #123
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Jun 11th 2017, #124
RE: Titanic 3D model project, Bill West, Jun 23rd 2017, #125
RE: Titanic 3D model project, SteveFury, Jun 25th 2017, #126

Bill WestTue Feb-21-17 12:24 PM
Member since Feb 02nd 2010
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#54685, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Welcome aboard Steve, it's always nice to see working models.

To help with your questions do you have a copy of TTSM so that we can point to items in it?

Engine plans for the Britannic are at http://hmhsbritannic.weebly.com/plans.html

The governor was drawn in this post http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=49792&mode=full . It is nothing like a flyball governor at all, it uses the inertia of a measuring element mounted on an arm that swings up and down.

A physical starting platform suits an old riverboat and it was revived with turbine engines but for reciprocating engines it is nothing more than an area of the plain engine room floor that is the focal point of the controls. The term is figurative rather than literal. In the Titanic's case it is the floor space on the lowest floor, beside the HP cylinder and between the two engines. The engine controls are hung on the side of the engine and are marked in a picture on pg315 of TTSM-I. The throttle wheel pushes a lever rotating a rod along the engine to another lever that pushes the valve open. There is a large main throttle and a small bypass used for maneuvering. The reverser handle is hung on the side of the reverser. This thread http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=49609&mode=full points to textbooks about the reverser, specifically the responses to replies 21 and 24.

In your third close up view of the end of the engine you show a valve on the top side of the cylinder. This is the top tap point for an "indicator" test. Google steam engine indicator or look in an old text, it's a mechanical pressure recorder with a drum shaped chart. The pipe runs down to a matching valve at the bottom of the cylinder for recording its pressure too. The indicator is attached near the top valve when an acceptance or maintenance performance test is run. Beneath the end of each cylinder is a light linkage that pulls a driving string that rotates the indicator chart with the cylinder stroke. The area of a chart of pressure versus stroke shows the power being developed and reveals mis-set valves, leaking rings, etc.

The dome bottom tub that you had run that indicator tap pipe to is a steam trap for letting condensation out of the cylinders at starting. There are several of these and they connect from their own valves at the points where water can collect in the cylinder, valve and passages.

Two other light linkages beneath the cylinders are the oiling tubes to the crossheads and the drive for the revolution counter at the front side of the engine.

In your screenshots, the one with the semi exploded isometric view showing all the rooms looked very interesting. What software are you using?

Bill

  

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SteveFuryTue Feb-21-17 06:01 PM
Member since Feb 20th 2017
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#54689, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 1
Tue Feb-21-17 06:03 PMby SteveFury

          

Hi Bill.
Thank you so much for all that valuable information and links. I did dozens of google searches across several key words and viewed endless pages for governors connected to cross heads. Thus your post is very much appreciated.
I also browsed all the pages here at TM.com from p50 back to p1 and somehow missed those links. It was great though and I learned a lot.

I can't get a copy of the TTSM quite yet.
For now I'm relying on web searches and online literature for things I don't understand. As a result I know I'll be making a lot of mistakes which should be relatively easy to correct. When I purchase the plans in the future then I should be able to go back in to make changes and re-render them. I'll be posting progress renders now and then and critics are certainly welcome.

I began Newtek's lightwave 3D about 16 years ago purely on a hobby level. The software is phenomenal and was used in production flicks like Avatar etc.
My skills are far from perfect but I keep a good attitude and continue to learn.

This will be maybe my 5th(?) Titanic computer model.
The first one pictured above (In the water with the boat deck) was done to get a good practice with the software. Studying plans to figure out the various passageways between floors and visualize casings is fun and interesting. I wanted a more tangible way to see them so I began building the various rooms based on floor plans from the tank top to A deck.

That model stopped at A deck because I wouldn't be able to do much with the single polygon walls in the future.

The next project was to build another one like the last except to put more details in... hence the next model with boiler rooms with a goal to make photos and 2D videos of the inside. The hull was made, tank top, boilers, main high pressure lines, the pair of reciprocating engines, turbine and tunnel. The main generating room was in progress along with the row of breakers on the adjacent room above.

Then I realized I did so many wild mistakes. I built the layers incorrectly which would have made it time consuming to correct. So I started another one with an improved hull, cut out all the decks and that's as far as I got before I moved onto another project.

Then I got the 3D goggles last month and realized that it was the ultimate way to tour the Titanic. The ability to stand between the two main engines and watch them run, to look over at the auxiliary pumps (etc) to see them working is extremely exciting, So here I go again.

Thanks again Bill for the info and links. I have a lot to digest.
Enough talk, I have cylinders to redo!

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestWed Feb-22-17 02:25 PM
Member since Feb 02nd 2010
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#54691, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 2


          

Good afternoon,

I see that Abebooks has TTSM at pretty reasonable prices ($45), someone seems to have some clearout stock.

If any of our authors are reading here, when I looked to see the current prices I was offered a free PDF copy. As I typed the title Google pushed on and suggested "titanic the ship magnificent pdf download" (drop the quotes). Smelling a rat I tested the automatic redirect in that PDF link. It was okay but I didn't look farther because it looked like I should put a condom on my computer first. A check of the .PW domain offered as the next link found that it is associated with spam or worse. I thought you guys should know about this as a possible criminal pirate problem.

Back to your project Steve, another source you might consider is the Linda Hall Library in Missouri http://www.lindahall.org/ . Their "Services/Document Delivery" will copy and send pages of period journals. They are the heirs of the "Engineering Societies" library (ASCE, ASME, IEEE, etc). I think the price is $16 per citation for up to 50 pages plus $3 USPS 1st class or $22 FedEx 3day shipping. I asked for and got folded 11x17" copies of large plates (insert pages). Get photocopies not email PDFs and then scan them at a suitable resolution. The emailed PDFs have to be moderate resolution because of email attachment size limits. An online catalogue is available.

More detailed engine drawings than the French ones I linked to before are in:
Engineering (London 1866- ) Vol 97 1914.
ISSN: 0013-7782
Feb 27th issue, 'White Star Steamer "Britannic"', pages 273-283 and plates.
The article covers hull & machinery, engine/turbine plans, deck plans, launch.

The other entries of interest in "Engineering" that I know of are:
vol 90 1910
-Jul 1 pg 14-15 Welin Davits
-Oct 21 pg 564-572 Olympic -hull & machinery
-Nov 10 pg 620-621 Olympic -hull & machinery
-Nov 18 pg 693(and facing plates!) -695, 698 Olympic -hull & machinery, boiler/engine/turbine/electric room plans
vol 91 1911
-May 26 pg 678-679 Olympic(despite article title/lead on Titanic) -general arrangement, deck plans
-Jun 2 pg 734 Titanic -launch announcement
-Jun 16 pg 789-792?? Olympic -accommodation
vol 93 1912
-Jun 14 pg 802-806 Titanic Inquiry -deck plans
-Jun 21 pg 847-850 Titanic Inquiry
-Jun 28 pg 884 Titanic Inquiry
vol 94 1912
-Jul 5 pg 3-12 Harland & Wolff -facilities
-Jul 12 pg 38-51 Harland & Wolff -facilities
-Aug 2 pg 154-157, 166 Belfast graving dock
-Aug 16 pg 237 Olympic -rebuttal letter on steering problem
-Aug 16 pg 239-241 Belfast graving dock
-Aug 23 pg 266-268 Safety Appliances at Sea Report -ice route map
Most of the drawings in these are the ones found online.

A detail to be careful about when working from the Britannic drawings is that the change to piston valves caused the LP exhaust pipe to be moved slightly.

Bill

  

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SteveFuryWed May-31-17 08:40 PM
Member since Feb 20th 2017
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#55192, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 1


          

I've been hitting this project hard.
Really all I've been working on is on my to-do lists, rendering to spot mistakes and discover areas of improvement. The last thing to do is the additional air pump for the cooking surface heater.

Once it's declared "good enough" then the next phase is to work out all the animations which will include:
*About 55 main engine parts
*About 85 auxiliary pump parts
*Gauge dial pointers, cameras and a few other things

I've put together a basic storyboard which should bring the total video time to be around 20 minutes. That's a pretty long video to keep a person's attention- especially just moving around an engine room. You'd have to be a pretty hard-core Titanic fan to see it through... But that's who this work is for. It's basically touring the camera around, stopping for 10-15 seconds at points of interest and perhaps indicating what the various knobs and levers do.

BTW-
Once all the animations are completed and proofed then it's onto the rendering phase.
The complexity of this model has gone right up to the limits of my processing power. With a conservative and reasonable quality settings, it is about 20 minutes to render a 2D single 1080 HD frame on my octo core i7 notebook. I'll be running 30 frames a second so 20 minutes will take a lot of time.
The bulk of this will be processed on some Vista-era AMD machines and any other computers I can find to be configured as a rendering farm running 24/7. I don't really mind but it lets the community here know that a video will take a long time.

I'll do the 2D first for those without the fancy goggles and then again in 3D stereo VR for an unequaled experience. I render the 3D in 2500x1250 pixles/inch which takes about 45 minutes per frame on my octo core machine. Well, those old AMD Vista machines are good for something... right?

The room is getting really busy and full of stuff.
I think this is looking pretty good. Here we are near the fwd WTD:


At the starting platform. Notice the gauge board.
I tested several locations with the aid of the 3D VR. That was clearly the best place. I base that on the ease of viewing the gauges as the throttle(s) are operated. 5 main gauges per engine and a clock:


Catwalk first level:


Starboard side facing forward showing catwalk stairs:


Cylinder level. It seemed the Britannic plans showed an I-beam ceiling supporting D deck so those were added. A stairs forward goes up.


The stairs up from the cylinder level seemed to be the most logical position based on the existing catwalk and access to the direct contact heater on D level. This is an older test render done in VR but you can see my proposed walkways:


And this one came out absolutely spectacular if viewed on a 3D goggle. You're standing right next to the Port throttle wheel, great stereo depth all around and up to the skylight. It's the scene experiences like this that keep me going on it:



Thanks again for looking.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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SteveFurySat Feb-25-17 01:28 AM
Member since Feb 20th 2017
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#54696, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Can anyone please view these valve gears and verify if they are built correctly? Particularly the connection on the control "See saw" link to the valve rods:








Thank you.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestSat Feb-25-17 02:36 AM
Member since Feb 02nd 2010
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#54697, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 4


          

Hi Steve, excellent graphics.
The eccentric link (the horizontal arched piece) is two duplicate bars. An end view of the eccentric shows in the cylinder drawings on the Britannic drawing link. Its two rectangular bars are encased in brass guides on the end of the valve stem.

A fine machinist has been building 3 working engines in 1:48. Do an advanced search for author Atlantic Run in both the Discussion and Model Photos forums. Two of the posts that show his valve gear are:
http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=51164&mode=full
http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=52783&mesg_id=52783&listing_type=search

Sorry, I'm away for 3 days, we can resume this Wednesday.

Bill

  

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J. Kent LaytonMon Feb-27-17 02:57 PM
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#54708, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

Beautiful work, Steve. I'm looking forward to seeing updates!

Regards,
J. Kent Layton
www.atlanticliners.com

  

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SteveFuryWed Mar-01-17 05:03 PM
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#54727, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Thank you for the compliments.
Here I've added the HP to IP, the IP to LP and the LP to LP piping. Along with some other various piping.

I changed the valve gearing to what I believe to be the correct type and began modeling the reversing engine. I'll definitely have to redo those cylinder tops:









If the various pipes, controls and linkages are reasonably correct on this model then I'll base some of it on mine- The ones I can't locate on the various diagrams I've acquired:


Thank you,

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestWed Mar-01-17 06:33 PM
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#54728, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 7


          

Hi Steve, the valve gear is coming along well. You are helping us understand how the pieces go together.

For the engine control and piping details, in a polite nutshell none of those on Mr. Pohlmann's model are accurate. At the time that model was built good drawings had not been circulated so it appears he did the best he could with "typical" details. H&W's details however were not the same as smaller engines of the era. I assume you saw the rest of the pictures here http://titanic-model.com/db/db-03/hahn.html

Bill

  

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SteveFuryFri Mar-03-17 05:36 AM
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#54731, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Thanks for the information about Hahn's amazing model. I can't even imagine the amount of time, skill and resources involved.

Given that information, I plan to model what I can recognize from readily available resources and leave the other out until I can acquire more detailed drawings.

I came across the Brown's reversing gear which was said to be on the Olympic class liners:


I've spent some time researching its operation and studying the diagrams and came up with this representation:


I noticed that I'll need to re-scale and lower it to better match the photo below, and adjust the mounting design. Also notice the man's height which shows the size of these machines. He would not have been able to reach the reversing gear controls. That makes me believe there must have been some form of catwalk or platform needed to reach the controls:


Here are a few more renders.
*The lever on the left controlled the direction and trim of the eccentrics. You'd squeeze the handle and its release latch, then move it to the proper trim.
*If there were no steam to power the unit, the eccentrics could still be moved by manually pumping the lever on the Right (Shown sticking out at 90 degrees.
*If manual pumping was necessary, a valve (Shown near the center between the two levers) was switched to move the eccentrics to forward or revers.
-The bottom cylinder was the primary mover of the eccentrics. The top hydraulic cylinder dampened the movement to make it smooth. The top cylinder was also used along with the pump to manually move the eccentrics:



Please keep in mind that all of this is only my personal interpretations based on the information I have. A lot of other folks here at TM.com are far more knowledgeable than myself and I'm hoping errors can be pointed out. If the error is major enough then I'm most appreciative and to process the changes.
Thanks,

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestFri Mar-03-17 08:40 PM
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#54735, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 9


          

Looking good Steve, lots of fine detail there. The reverser drawing is the one I used too, in my first reply above. The comments I made in the post linked to should be gone over however, there's quite a bit of size and detail to adjust from that drawing. Basically the reverser should be flipped for the port engine.

The floors were raised 5' above the tank top in the engine room and 3.5' in the boiler rooms, that's what made the controls reachable.

Bill

  

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SteveFuryThu Mar-09-17 08:54 PM
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#54758, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Mar-09-17 08:54 PMby SteveFury

          

I'm going to say the reciprocating engines are about done except for a few things like texturing and some piping. Some things like the throttle, gauges etc are left out until I can acquire an accurate plan.

Here I added some cat walks. They'll need to be adjusted to conform to the shape of the engine room. It will be imperative to render in 360 degree view due to the tightness of the engine room. As for now, my engine sits in a square of corrugated steel.

I'm not sure if these lamps are accurate or not but I needed to find a way to illuminate the otherwise dark crankshaft area.

Once this port side engine is completed then I'll mirror it to the starboard side:







Thanks for looking.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestSat Mar-11-17 01:15 AM
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#54769, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 11


          

Very good approach to lighting Steve. Most renditions give the room modern lighting qualities when in fact your distributed light bulb approach is closer to 1912 reality.

The walkways are just below cylinder top, at the cylinder bottom and at the midpoint between there and the engine room floor. The midpoint walkway gives access to the valve gear. From the aft end of the room two parallel stairways between the engines access the walkways as the stairs descend from the engine room entrance on deck E to the e/r floor. Almost makes a grand staircase.

Bill

  

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SteveFurySun Mar-12-17 08:04 PM
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#54780, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Thank you for the info Bill.

Below is my latest.

First is the empty, un-textured reciprocating room:




Further progress:





I'll probably try to figure out the catwalks next.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestMon Mar-13-17 12:05 AM
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#54781, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 13


          

Excellent Steve, that's even more realistic looking than the movie.
An optional detail, there are three 15" I beams crossing the room 5' above G deck. Each one passes on the aft side of one of the centerline columns. A similar beam meets them, running fore and aft between the columns. A 6' x 3' triangular gusset reaches forward from D deck into the skylight area to cap the forward column. The novelty of the cross beams is that they are threaded between the engine cylinders, building the room and the engines was an interlocking project.

Bill

  

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SteveFuryThu Mar-16-17 05:50 AM
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#54795, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Here is my progress.
Thanks Bill, I've introduced the I-beams. I assume those would have been used with a block and tackle if emergency engine repair was necessary at sea
It was -extremly- tight getting the center one between the HP and IP cylinders:



Here's a couple quick test renders.
Note the general lighting which will change back to the individual incandescent when finished.

Below is a view out of what will be the Engineers mess on E deck:



And the main floor:



Below is my plan for the catwalks. I see some errors there after I made the graphic.
I am hoping it is generally correct. Particularly where the catwalks go all the way forward and aft, port and starboard.

They begin from the two opposite doors on E deck. Two stairs cascade down from E deck to the upper level catwalk at cylinder height. A pair of stairs against the after wall lead down to the middle catwalk and also down to the lower catwalk.
A pair of stairs lead into the center of the engine room as can be seen in the famous Britanic engine room construction photo:



This is how my engine room lined up wit the floors:

E deck is well above the cylinder tops.
F deck lines up pretty close to the cylinder tops. That will be my upper catwalk.
G deck lines up with the middle catwalk.
The Orlop deck along with its Brine room overhang lines up with the lower catwalk.

Other ladders/catwalks will run from the engine room floor up to the Orlop against the port wall. Ladders/catwalks up the forward bulkhead up to the pre-heater and further up the chase.

Please let me know if this is completely wrong.

Thanks!

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestFri Mar-17-17 12:55 AM
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#54798, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 15


          

That's the first time I've seen those beams portrayed, thanks. The view at the top of the engine is also good, reminds me of the shot at the top of the Ceramic's engine.

Lighting
Art's model reminded me of some information on the Olympic's lighting levels that Ralph posted from an old magazine, http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=34848&mode=full . It suggests 30w lights on 8' centers and two 1000w lights. I suggested a translation to modern values of 15w (and 500w) in http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=41480&mesg_id=41480 .

We also had a discussion on this over an engine room picture on the Lusitania. http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=40730&mode=full posts 11 and 17. My feeling was that the photo was over lit for camera purposes. So bear that in mind in looking at this picture in the Olympic's engine room http://marconigraph.com/titanic/electrician/elec_110728_4.html . That's the forward center room column with the phones on it and the shaft forward of it is an electric winch for repair work.

Hoists
There is a bridge crane hanging from two rails on the ceiling over each engine for taking the cylinder heads and pistons off. In the archway on the side of each engine frame is an eye bolt rolling on an I beam from over each crank pin to the aisle between the two engines for taking the big end apart.

Catwalks
Your sketches are a good way to go over this. I started to check them and had a snag however, the room shape in your end view didn't seem to fit. Look at the aft facing view in this thread http://www.titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=32082&mode=full . The beam appearance shown across at the lower deck level is likely just the reinforcement on the turbine room bulkhead and the feed heater is incorrectly shown at the wrong end of the room.

The top catwalk is just below cylinder top and then takes a small jog down forward of the aft LP cylinder.
The middle catwalk is mainly on the outer side of the engine. It is laid on top of the lower flange of the room I beams and only runs between the first and third cross beams. At the forward LP cylinder a stair down from the inside top catwalk services a short section running on the inner side of the engine to the top of the steam separators.
The bottom catwalk wraps around the engine rather than the room.

The Engineering drawings from the Linda Hall Library would really help here because there is a bunch of guessing involved.

Bill

  

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SteveFurySun Mar-19-17 11:19 AM
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#54804, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Here's a friendly note to anyone trying to do an accurate recip room: Be certain your engine dimensions are correct, especially as it relates to the floor levels!
Mine were wrong and I had to do a lot of time consuming adjustments to both the room and engines.

Thanks, as always Bill for the input.
I spent many hours configuring the catwalks in a logical way given your suggestions. Those big LP pipes going to the turbine room kept getting in the way.
I eventually gave up trying to figure a cascading style stairs and just opted for a 23 foot stair from E deck level all the way down to the bottom catwalk.
23 feet is a very long stair indeed but I've seen some really long catwalk stairs. At least that's my rationale.
If I ever can get an actual plan then it's easy enough to make adjustments.



I had based the design of the walkways on this photo. It looks like to me that they are individual panels fastened together:



I think this project is coming along well. I need to research early 1900 overhead electric gantry winches for a good design and put them above the cylinders as Bill has suggested.

I'm not happy with the general lighting in the photos below, and the catwalks need railings, the walkways under the cylinders for the valve gear access etc... - Here's my latest tests:

Space view:


Port side facing Aft with the Brine room overhang:


Forward facing aft. Notice the long stairs from the lower catwalk up to the level of E deck:


Facing aft. E deck main hall on the left, Engineers mess on the right. I'll probably put a window or two in the wall for the engineers mess:


Thank you for looking, and for any comments you may have.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestSun Mar-19-17 01:21 PM
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#54805, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 17


          

This is getting to be extremely realistic, you're doing more for visualizing this than any work I've seen before!

Some observations:
-I think the catwalks are built just from rails & rods, no mesh. Omitting it will improve the visibility in your drawings.
-How about if the E deck entry steps down from sides to the level of the cylinder tops before crossing the back of the room?
-I do think the main stairs run from the top catwalk level to the middle then middle to the lower catwalk and do so between the back of the room and the aft room column. Then the lower catwalk to the floor section is between the aft and middle room columns. I think it accounts for one of the stairs that you have drawn on the outside of the engines. The first picture in this post is poor but I think it shows just enough of how the stairs descended. https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/community/threads/engine-crankcase-dwg-accessories-and-steering-engine.30643/ . The drawing is from The Shipbuilder magazine reprint. Reduced resolution drawings are also shown at Robert Hahn's site http://www.titanic-plan.de/i_HW_plans_e.html

-When you create the little step stairs that access the valve gear, add one over the crankshaft at the middle of the engine. It just shows in a Britannic shop picture and I think it was the shortcut between the pump areas and the starting platform area when things went wrong.
-You're being observant about catching the pipe from the LP exhaust to the balance pistons on top of the LP valve chests. The pipe extends between the two balance pistons too.
-The governor is on the aft side of the IP cylinder frame facing the aft LP cylinder frame. Maybe my article was a bit vague.
-I'd be doubtful about having windows from the engineers mess.
-The overhead gantry was chain operated, fore/aft travel, cross travel on a shared positioning screw and 2 hoists on the gantry. Some of the room plans give the general appearance.

Bill

  

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Ralph CurrellThu Mar-23-17 04:05 PM
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#54810, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 18


          

Hi Steve,

I've been following this project with interest. Your work so far is very impressive.

I took some time to try to figure out the grating and ladder arrangement and it's pretty tricky, especially if the pipes are taken into consideration. Here's what I have so far:



There are probably elements that don't appear on the plans, such as cross-platforms between the two engines. One thing that surprised me is how little space there is between the outboard sides of the engines and the ship's structure.

If time permits I'll work on a more detailed layout. Perhaps a series of plan views for each level is the best way of presenting this.

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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Bill WestThu Mar-23-17 11:15 PM
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#54812, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 19


          

That's very helpful Ralph. What type of program are you using, graphics, CAD, 3D, isometric?
My only comment is that in the green catwalks I think the aft stair and middle walks are on the outboard side. The Engineering Britannic plans look like they have dashed lines where these pass behind the engine columns and cylinder bases.
Your speculative walk across the front of the engine would have been a good idea for connecting the engineer's stores to the workshop but I think the main steam strainers will block the middle part of the walk, limiting it to engine access purposes.

Bill

  

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Ralph CurrellFri Mar-24-17 10:28 AM
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#54813, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 20


          

Hi Bill,

I did that in 2D (CorelDraw) using isometric projection (I think that's the right term -- it's been a long time since high school drafting class).

You're quite right that that green ladder and gratings are incorrect. I'm having a bit of trouble deciding where they ought to go though. I've sketched a couple of possibilities, one inboard and one outboard, but space is pretty tight either way. What do you think?



It's hard to see on my earlier diagram, but the yellow gratings at the forward bulkhead are separate (one accessible from below and the other from above) for the very reason you pointed out; the steam separator and pipes would prevent their being connected.

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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Bill WestFri Mar-24-17 12:21 PM
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#54814, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 21


          

Hi Ralph,

I could see an outboard catwalk location as a crawl space for servicing the IP-LP steam pipes and the various auxiliary steam pipes up there. But in looking back at my source drawings I'm no longer convinced about hidden lines so I'm going to go with your inboard choice. We sure need the views drawn and the 3D too, complete with piping info to really tell what is going on here.

An aside, especially for Steve, I was reminded that there is a 6' deep vertical plate acting as a stiffener at the aft bulkhead. It is on the ship centerline and has angle irons on the leading edge making it an I beam on end. There is also a vertical channel, about 8", just like a ship rib on the starboard side at the 3' mark. This vertical beam splits the 2 hydraulic pumps, one is hung on each side of this beam. The fore- aft I beam that runs between the engines terminates at this vertical beam with a 3' L x 2' H concave curved gusset downwards.

A 2' 9" deep horizontal plate mounted 17'9" above the working floor also stiffens the aft bulkhead. It has a bulb channel about 12" H on the upper front edge and a plain channel about 10"H on the lower front edge. Triangular gussets 3'6" H support the horizontal plate from below.

Bill

  

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Ralph CurrellFri Mar-24-17 02:27 PM
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#54815, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 22


          

Hi Bill,

I'll draw some plan views which may make it easier to visualize. It would probably be best if I start a new forum topic so as not to hijack Steve's project thread.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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SteveFurySat Mar-25-17 03:28 PM
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#54818, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Mar-25-17 03:47 PMby SteveFury

          

Thank you all SO MUCH for the input. It is very much appreciated and please don't worry about hijacking my thread. If it's OK, I'd rather have the pertinent information here rather than elsewhere.

Ralph, I love your drawing a lot. Thank you -so- much.
Please let me know if you believe it to be correct and I'll go with that one.

With the discussion about a possible catwalk located between the 3 I-beams on the inboard side of the engine (under the LP pipe), it is not doable. There is simply no room. Nobody could go there.
I built those once but discovered the problem and eliminated them.
Currently, the middle catwalk in the center of the room is nothing more than a platform for the main staircase. If a catwalk exists at that place then it would need to run further out from the engine, toward the centerline of the room.

I've been very busy with this. These are my current catwalks but will be most happy to re-do them once we figure them out. I'm trying to work out lighting locations. The "firefly" white flairs are simply lighting location tests. I've removed all of the light fixtures until they are worked out.

Some of the colors are wrong, I have a zillion corrections to do but I'm satisfied with thus far:











Below is my floors-to-room alignment.
I allotted 1ft for floor thickness:
8' From Tank Top to Orlop.
17' From Tank Top to G.
8' G
8'6" F
9' E
44'6" Tank Top to ceiling of D
I had adjusted the height of the engine columns and cylinders to fit those figures. Cylinder tops to the ER floor is 32':



There is just enough room to fit a catwalk between the IP piping and F deck. Although it wouldn't be my favorite pathway.

On the forward end of the upper catwalk:
I had ran a short ladder down to a landing against the fwd bulkhead, then ran a pair of stairs port and starboard down to a level where the separators will be.
I don't think that's right.
The platform which is supposed to service the separators interfere with the WTD cylinders:


Below is a top-down view of the area.
I can see that I'll need to point the engine's HP input pipe more toward the center of the room for things to fit.

However you can see the stairs coming down from amid ship.
The presence of those stairs and platforms against the fwd WTB will probably interfere later on with the piping.

It would be just as reasonable to access the separators via the lower catwalk. I'm not sure which way to go. What would you do?


Another issue I just noticed:
If I move the HP pipe closer to the center of the room, it will place the separators close one to another. Plus I'll need to make enough space between the starboard separator and the WTD to allow for the blow-off valve and its hanging operation wheel.

I'll probably have to move the engines outward, away from the centerline along with the WTD to make room for the separators. I don't have the diameter of the input HP pipe. I could also scale that down a little to help.

Question.
Is there a ladder from the catwalk on E deck up to the Boat deck?
I see doors on the engine room casing on A deck (To a Tank room), and on Boat deck to two Tank rooms.
I've read references to a ladder running up through the middle of funnel #4. Is that the same ladder?

I have gained a huge amount of respect for the original designers. I can't imagine trying to design all of this without CAD. And then expect everything to actually work.

Thanks everyone!

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Karol_WSat Mar-25-17 04:17 PM
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#54820, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 24
Sat Mar-25-17 04:19 PMby Karol_W

          

Good Evening Steve.

On the forward end of the upper catwalk:
I had ran a short ladder down to a landing against the fwd bulkhead, then ran a pair of stairs port and starboard down to a level where the separators will be.
I don't think that's right.
The platform which is supposed to service the separators interfere with the WTD cylinders:



Below is a top-down view of the area.
I can see that I'll need to point the engine's HP input pipe more toward the center of the room for things to fit.

However you can see the stairs coming down from amid ship.
The presence of those stairs and platforms against the fwd WTB will probably interfere later on with the piping.

It would be just as reasonable to access the separators via the lower catwalk. I'm not sure which way to go. What would you do?


I suppose this catwalk was intended to access the valves on top of separators, am i right?

If so, it would not be possible to do in that way, because Main bulkhead valves for Main Steam Lines and cross connection between them would colide with it. Based on Britannic engines plans from 'Engineering', there were a stairs leading from cylinders covers catwalk down to the level of cross beams on F deck, where there was a cross catwalk for servicing Main Steam and Cross-connection Valves.

Orange catwalk titled 'To Main Steam Valves' with white arrows is for this purpose.



Is there a ladder from the catwalk on E deck up to the Boat deck?
I see doors on the engine room casing on A deck (To a Tank room), and on Boat deck to two Tank rooms.
I've read references to a ladder running up through the middle of funnel #4. Is that the same ladder?


There were a series of stairs, ladders and catwalks leading from cylinders covers catwalks up to the Boat Deck level. Their exact arragement is not known.

In term of 4th funnel - i do not think that there would be a simple ladder for access to funnel top. It is more reasonable to place a stairs there, mainly for safety reasons.

Below is a photograph of Engine Room casing under 3rd funnel of SS Belgenland. It gives a good impression of how the Engine Room casing on Titanic would look like.



BTW: As we can see all stairs in Engine Room area have a steel white painted covers on underside. This was to avoid accidents where something would fall on the heads of Engineers working on Starting Platform, when somebody would drop something on those stairs.

Regards,

Karol

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Bill WestSun Mar-26-17 01:18 PM
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#54824, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 25


          

Very impressive Steve. I like the overhead cranes too.

I'll try to help with the room dimensions later, right now I'm on my third day of trying to clear 30 years of car parts out of my garage, I've got 2 truckloads so far :) . In the evening I've been working on a rough piping schematic for the tank top. Does your graphics program allow overlaying jpg scans of the various existing drawings we are using? I'm thinking that tracing would be the simplest way to scale room dimensions, main steam pipe locations and the engine's slight upward/outward slope to the stern. The frame spacing of 3' in this area gives a fairly long ruler for correctly adjusting the jpg scaling.

Another engine casing sample is the one from the Mauretania http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=40730&mesg_id=40840 . I think the Turbine room casing might be similar, at least as far up as the boat deck. I can't clearly see whether they are using stairs or ladders between the levels. Whichever is used, the only practical starting point would be the top catwalks on the engines.

The original designers had help in the form of the office, shop and fitting out berth all being within a few hundred yards of each other. The drawing note "shop to fit to suit" always helps too :) .Most basically past experience would have made them wise to what to look out for in the way of potential conflicts. None the less I'm sure they had lots of "Oh dam" moments.

Bill

  

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Bill WestMon Mar-27-17 12:21 AM
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#54826, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 26
Mon Mar-27-17 11:42 AMby Bill West

          

Hi Steve, I read the midship deck heights as follows. This largely comes from TTSM. There are some offsets in deck height at a few odd places (pool, fore peak) and the plating & beam heights do vary.

v---part of the vertical spacing figures
.......... v-----not part of the spacing figures

------Roof decking 2.5" wood
0'----This is the roof on the Boat deck's deckhouses.
------Roof 4" beam height
------
------Boat decking 3" wood
8.25' Boat deck height, beam top to beam top above.
------Boat 6" beam height
------
------A Litosilo finish
------A decking 0 .26" deck, 0.36"-0.38"? margin plate/stringer at side
9.5' A Promenade deck height, beam top to beam top above.
------A 7.5" beam height
------
------B Litosilo finish
------B decking 0.74" deck, 0.60" margin plate/stringer at side
9' B Bridge deck height, beam top to beam top above.
------B 9" beam height
------
------C 2" Litosilo finish
------C decking , 0.60" margin plate/stringer at side
9' C Shelter deck height, beam top to beam top above.
------C 9" beam height
------
------D Litosilo finish
------D decking , 0.60" margin plate/stringer at side
10.5' D Saloon deck height, beam top to beam top above. This is the galley and dining room.
------D 9" beam height
------
------E 2" Litosilo finish
------E decking 0.36" deck, 0.60" margin plate/stringer at side
9' E Upper deck height, beam top to beam top above. This is Scotland road.
------E 9" beam height
------
------F Litosilo finish
------F decking 0.36" deck, 0.60" margin plate/stringer at side
8.5' F Middle deck height, beam top to beam top above. This is 3rd class dining.
------F 10" beam height
------
------G Litosilo finish
------G decking 0.40" deck, 0.60" margin plate/stringer at side
8' G Lower deck height, beam top to beam top above.
------G 15" beam height
------
------Orlop deck height is 8', here it is part of the boiler room's 23' figure
------
------2'-7.5"' to the top of the diamond plate decking. 5' in the engine room.
------Boiler room's 0.80" tank top plating, in the Engine room it is as much as 1.125".
23'* Boiler room height from the top of the tank frame at the centerline to the top of the G deck beam at the ship's side
5.25' tank frame, 6.25' in the engine room. I think the bottom of this is the "base line" and is the start for moulded depth.
1.5" keel plate, the hull plating connects to this.
3" keel rub bar, counts in draft figures.

*-Add 3" camber to the deck beam at the ship's centerline. The camber is virtually a radius.
-This deck's height is the one that varies with sheer. The figure here is the low point at frame 24A (BR-1). At midships where the freeboard is figured (frames 1A-1F, BR-2) it is 4.5" higher. The actual curve for the sheer has not been worked out. The GRT calculations suggest that it may be flat from Boiler Room 1 through the Turbine room. I think if that is not true it will still only be an error of an inch or two so it is plenty good enough for your Engine Room rendering. With the difference in tank frame heights we get 22' tank frame top to G deck beam top (at side) in the engine room.

For the angles on the engine centerline this post http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=52225&mesg_id=52269 leads to these positions for the crankshafts passing through the aft engine room bulkhead and projecting to the forward bulkhead:
-at forward bulkhead K/frame 30A the shaft is 12' 1.3" above the hull base line and 16' 4.634" off the ship centerline
-at aft bulkhead L/frame 53A the shaft is 12' 1-3/8" above the hull base line and 16' 11" off the ship centerline
The 2-3" filler allowed between the tank top plating and the engine base for levelling will account for any difference between the resulting engine base level and the tank top level.

Bill

edit 1 -ER floor thickness was "1.25"
edit 2 -Bulkhead L was "forward"

  

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Scott AndrewsSun Jun-25-17 06:40 PM
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#55269, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

Steve,

I apologize for sticking my two cents in so many weeks after this post was made. Perhaps one of the good and very knowledgeable people already assisting you have mentioned this to you, but "just in case..."

All vertical sliding WTDs, staring with WTB "K" and aft, were narrower than those between boiler rooms, and those from the boiler rooms into the firemen's tunnel. The boiler room doors, meant to allow two men to squeeze by at the same time during the chaos which ensued during shift change, were wider than those through the machinery spaces and shaft tunnels. This resulted in a much heavier door plate which, in turn, required double hydraulic cataracts to regulate the closing. The doors in the WTBs abaft the boiler rooms were narrower, and had only a single cataract located on the centerline of the door. While this doesn't cure your interference problem with the platform and the upper portion of the door regulating cylinders, it may possibly make the solution more apparent while adding to the accuracy of your wonderful 3D model.


Regards,
Scott Andrews
TRMA Trustee

PS - The boiler room doors also had to allow for easy passage of a wheelbarrow when the need arose.

  

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Scott AndrewsMon Jun-26-17 07:31 PM
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#55278, "RE: More regarding WTD at WTB "K""
In response to Reply # 127


  

          

In my previous message, I noted that the door into the Reciprocating Engine Room was of the narrower 2'-9" clear width, versus the 4'-0" clear width of the double-cylinder doors throughout the bulkheads forward of "K." Upon looking at the "Engineering" section looking forward through the Reciprocating Engine Room, I spotted an error in this drawing that I had never noticed before; while the drawing shows the narrower door opening, it incorrectly shows TWO cataracts above the door instead of the single cataract that should appear with this door size. I wanted to point this out since I'm certain that this is where the information regarding this door having two of these hydraulic units comes! At any rate, I'm 100% certain that the "Engineering" drawing is incorrect in this respect.

Regards,
Scott Andrews
TRMA Trustee

  

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SteveFuryWed Jun-28-17 12:15 PM
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#55281, "RE: More regarding WTD at WTB "
In response to Reply # 128


          

Thanks for the info Scott.

I was also wondering about that conflict when I was building the room. I've put that on my to do list.
Much appreciated.
-Steve

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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SteveFuryMon Mar-27-17 05:45 AM
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#54828, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Mar-27-17 05:48 AMby SteveFury

          

Thanks Karol for the wonderful catwalk diagrams.
I'm thinking it may be better for me to get some of the piping in before redoing the catwalks. Maybe it might cut down on redoing some things. It will also give me some time to fully asses what you've posted.

Thanks Bill for all your input.
Yes, my software does allow background images. I'm currently working on the forward bulkhead pipes and equipment. You can see below that I've uncluttered a popular diagram for that purpose:



The problem I had with alignment before was mainly caused by a badly scaled WTD system. My new door now fits the background diagram above. I didn't realize they were so short! I thought they were normal door height but these passage openings are only about 5'6" tall. Lots of bumped heads!

I located some detailed piping schematics here at TM. I can figure out some of the pipe routing based on those documents but any input you can give is very appreciated.

Below is a couple examples of some work last weekend.
I re-did the centerline connections on the rooms I-beams:







Regarding the large bypass valve between the two separators- I am unclear about the linkage so I've left it off for now.

Also, it is doubtful that all the hand wheels were red. Probably color coded to function (IE feedwater, HP & regulated steam etc). The red just gives them a bit of color and is easily changed later.

Thanks for looking.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestMon Mar-27-17 08:14 PM
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#54831, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 28


          

Now you've done it Steve, you've added the auxiliary piping. Now we're really going to see what a pain designing the catwalks was :) . But the chief engineer would be proud of how the boys are keeping those pipes shiny.

Here's a scan of the low tech method I used to sort out the pipes around the feed filters and surface heater. It's looking in from the front of the engine room, starboard side.



You are bringing out a point here that I saw with the tank top plumbing sketch I'm making and the accommodation space plumbing drawing in TTSM. The fitting out of the ship not only involved a lot of work building the cabins, there was a surprisingly large amount of piping to install and much wiring too. When I look at a coloured broadside and tank top I see a lot of money and time having to be allowed for. It seems like house building, the framing and close in go quickly and then the finishing takes forever.

For your "Bumped heads" comment, average heights were less a hundred years ago.

The red valve handwheels actually look good, I don't think colour coding was common back then. The cross tie valve between the separators has a T shaped handle direct on the valve stem with one end of the T turned up. It's a fairly common style in old marine work, look at picture 48 in the link below.

While looking for a picture of a T shaped valve handle I came across this site http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/systems/propulsion/sackville/ . Canadian Corvettes were the workhorses of the North Atlantic convoy service in WWII. This one survived and is on display in Halifax, click the ship's name at the top of the text. It was built in 1939 but has much Titanic era technology. In the post war years it was used for ocean research so it does have some modernization. My main point in linking it here is as a sample of paint colour and texture. The white on walls for visibility and black on wearing surfaces such as floors and handrails is very typical. The pale blue on the machinery is just owner's preference, I think the buff you've used is more likely for the Titanic. Picture 19 has what I think is the most correct lighting and tone, the others I feel are distorted by the photography. Its natural lighting from the skylight will of course be a different colour when it comes from incandescents down below.

Another aspect of the pictures is something model railroaders call "weathering". If you do a perfect gloss black paint job on a model steam locomotive it looks unrealistic. But if you mix in some grey it looks like a real locomotive with a bit of oil not quite wiped off and a touch of road dirt on it. The first problem is 1920's paint did not produce today's automotive glosses with their depth and perfect shine. Even the few full size locomotives running on special excursion today are looking unauthentic because of these perfect paints. So for our digital rendering this makes me think that the walls and floors could use an uneven tone and finish. It would avoid the risk of the floors looking like they were machined dead level, polished to a mirror finish and waxed. I'm wondering if just a simple digital filter could apply a suitable blemish or mottled texture. Maybe this is a thought for much later in the project.

Bill

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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SteveFuryTue Mar-28-17 05:57 AM
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#54834, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 29


          

Thanks Bill all of that was super helpful, especially the sketch you made. Regarding TSM plans, I have what I have which is collected from various posts around the web. Most of the forward WTB side view, the view facing forward of the WTB and top view.

It can be a bit confusing to un-jumple all those parallel lines representing pipes regardless of views so... thank you.

I did some very basic texturing for these test renders. The walls and ceiling were put almost white with splotches of gray. The floor is put a dark gray with a dot grid which is supposed to emulate a non-skid steel textured surface. It's also shaded here and there to make it less uniform.
I'll be doing more later but as for now I just want to get past the geometry.
It's not too much work to make it appear fairly sterile or a nasty, drippy greasy mess. I still need to make image maps of the various surfaces such as exterior hull plating, bump and image maps for the bulkheads and various walls, flooring and ceiling.

There's a zillion rivets to add along the walls and plating. Instancing is a way to cut down on computer resources for rendering large numbers of the same thing so rivets are a prime candidate. It takes a while to set all that up and I'll be doing all of that later.
Thanks for the Canadian link. That's a great resource. I think you (or someone else) had posted a photo of the intercom phones hanging on one of the centerline posts. I also noticed the post has been painted to a certain height. I hope to do all of that.

But for now the WTB's are just flat aqua green with a few (very light) blotchy darker areas.

Far as pipes under the ER floor, none of those will be done. Piping reaching under from above will stop at or near floor level. I don't plan to model all the pipes. Just the ones which would be obviously missing.
For example, I'll be doing all or most of the pipes in your sketch as they are pretty obvious.

Once all of this is done then I plan to set both reciprocating engines in motion along with all of the auxiliaries and render a number of 2D movies and post them on YouTube.

The cinematic issue here is working in such a small space.
My camera is set to wide angle which produces a bit of "fish eye" effect in these renderings.
For example, all my walls are plumb. But with the wide angle, the wall in the middle of the view will appear plumb but the walls/objects on the sides will look angled.

I believe the answer to that issue is 360 view. At least that way the folks can manually direct their view rather than externally directed by the 2D technology.

But the ultimate here is to render the 3D 360 view.
To virtually "walk" throughout the ER and look around seeing the various mechanics operate. Simulated sound, of course.
Hopefully it will be immersive so your mind can be somewhat be fooled as if you're there, at least to the level of other similar media.

Here is an example of the 2d 360. Click on any of the model links:
https://www.granddesignrv.com/showroom/2017/fifth-wheel/solitude/virtual-tour

Once the reciprocating room is declared finished and all rendered then I might move onto the turbine and boiler rooms. That's further down the road though.

Thanks, as always.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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SteveFuryThu Mar-30-17 05:13 AM
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#54848, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I've been building my rendition of the Weir's feed pump.

I found this photo of a pump in one of the engineering references:


This is what I have thus far. It was a lot of work, I hope it isn't too far off. I still have a lot of work to do with it. It looks like most of the feed water lines attach to the back. The center cylinder on each side is supposed to represent the actual pump chamber so I added the block on the back which I'll run the feeder lines. I hope that's right. Notice the pump is the wrong scale (size) and positioned incorrectly in the room. That's just while I'm building it:





Here's another observation, this time regarding the Surface Heater.
I read in a different thread here at TR&MA about a question about servicing this heater because there's not enough room between the heater and the wall of G deck to remove the pipes inside the heater for maintenance.
The plans call for a door on G deck (Leads to the workshop store room and onto the shop) to be right in the corner of the room. That seems to be the only access to the workshop:




You can see the area is pretty tight. I wonder if that door may have allowed the space required to service the heater?



The heater itself is scaled to plan:



I don't have the actual scale of the shop door. I believe I built it 7' tall and 2.5 or 3 feet wide.
A possible conflict with the idea of using the door to service the heater: There are quite a few pipes in the same area.

It seems odd they stuck a door there in the first place. Maybe it will become more obvious once I get more of the pipes in.



Thanks,

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestThu Mar-30-17 11:08 AM
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#54849, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 31


          

Hi Steve,
That's the right make and era of feed pump but Titanic's were quite a bit beefier. The engine room bulkhead drawing gives a sense of scale. The foot under each pump half is larger and is more under the center of the cylinder. There are 3 intake selection valves in front of each pump half. They connect to lines mostly from under the floor. The 4 valves facing us in the middle of the picture are the delivery selection valves and connect to 2 pipes at the back. Because of the feedwater heating function the control tank in front is located at the hotwell pump just aft of the two feed pumps. There it is a larger, square tank beneath the deck.

For the shop door, I too am wondering what the access will be. It's something that the crew would want to be very convenient.

Bill

  

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SteveFuryThu Mar-30-17 11:56 AM
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#54850, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 32
Thu Mar-30-17 11:56 AMby SteveFury

          

Hi Bill.
If I understand correctly no tank is visible and the pump is supported by a large pad under each cylinder?
Thanks that's important information!

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Karol_WThu Mar-30-17 12:20 PM
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#54851, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 33


          

Good Evening Steve.

The tank that you are talking about is called Hotwell/Control Tank. There are two such tanks on both sides of the engine room. To each of those tanks two hotwell pumps were connected, what gives four pumps, or two pairs of pumps. These pumps were drawing feed water from control tanks and discharge them to Feed Water Filters, steam supply to those pumps was controlled by a float inside the tank with counter weight mounted on a lever.

Hotwell pumps were not lying directly on the Tank Top plates, but on so called stools - most likely one for each pump.

In case of Feed Water Pumps - there were eight of them. Two were making one pair, what gives four pairs - two for each side of the room. They were capable to draw water from three sources - from direct contact heater, from Hotwell Tank or from Reserve Feed Water tanks in double bottom under Engine Rooms. Each of those pumps had it's own suction valve, three per pump connected like mentioned above. Each pair of pumps lied on a stool.

Stool for aft starboard side pair of Feed Water Pumps is still present on the wreck. Take a look on far left side - there is a kind of steel shelf attached to remains of hull frames - this is a stool. A bit further aft is something that looks like a remains of hotwell tank



Regards

Karol

  

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SteveFuryThu Mar-30-17 01:26 PM
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#54852, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 34


          

Hi Karol.
Is the Weir pic posted really a hotwell pump? (I won't be surprised) If so then perhaps I could use the model I made as a hotwell pump (minus the tank).
I see in the plans that most everything in the room is on a stool, but for CG purposes everything is on the floor. I apologize that I made that confusing.
But thanks for pointing it out on the wreck, I was wondering what that was.

I surfed the Google for other weir feed pumps and found a few as Bill had described.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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SteveFuryThu Mar-30-17 05:44 PM
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#54854, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 35


          

Ok, I must have had a brain fart.
Of course a boiler feed pump wouldn't have a hotwell tank attached to it. I'm having a "What was I thinking" moment.

I'll just take the ER plans I have and ad-hock one along with your descriptions.

On the other hand, I found this in further research. I was surprised because I thought these would cycle faster:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxBMCxlknsc

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestThu Mar-30-17 06:53 PM
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#54857, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 36


          

Hi Steve
The pump casting has a fat round leg under it that goes through the floor to a mushroom shaped foot. That sits on the steel plate stool that Karol described. There are also 2 arms forward and outward from the check valve casting at 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock that have steel rod legs to the stool. The 1901 and 1914 pictures at http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/G._and_J._Weir show the legs.

A feed pump and a hotwell pump of the same size and with the same number of connections would look identical. Many combinations of feed pump, control tank, hotwell pump and feed heater can be found, it depends on the size of the system and the money to be spent on getting good fuel economy.

Bill

  

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SteveFuryThu Mar-30-17 08:48 PM
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#54859, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 37


          

Thank you Thank you thank you Bill!
I searched for several hours for "Weir feed pump" and this was the most heftiest looking one I found:


I had started them this evening, here is a recent render (Still missing the feed valves:


I'll abandon these and hope to finish the ones in your link this weekend.

Wow you and Karol are great!!

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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SteveFuryFri Mar-31-17 11:21 PM
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#54864, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Mar-31-17 11:25 PMby SteveFury

          

I came up with these two starboard feed pump units.
I have them scaled to 12 feet high which sets them pretty close to the drawing plans. Those two top valves for the engine are mighty high!

This is the 3rd version, I think they are the winner. I hope to pipe them in this weekend:




Thanks again for the guidance.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestSun Apr-02-17 02:00 AM
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#54868, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 39


          

Hi Steve, sorry for the slow reply.
The pumps look good, copy on!
When the other auxiliaries are in, the two engine room wings are going to start looking pretty busy. I once made a tally that there were 58 pumps and 29 engines to maintain on the ship. Annual maintenance was probably a continuous process.

Bill

  

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tuckySun Apr-02-17 04:13 PM
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#54870, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

Hi Steve and Bill,

I have been doing some reading over the weekend and have found one of my books has some information that you may find interesting in regard to the Weir Feed Pump.
These are scans of a book in my collection, I hope they are of use.

Regards,

Steven Tuckwood













Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)
Attachment #3, (jpg file)
Attachment #4, (jpg file)

  

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SteveFuryMon Apr-03-17 07:56 PM
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#54880, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Apr-03-17 07:58 PMby SteveFury

          

Thanks Bill and Steven.
I had a chance to work on it this weekend.
I changed the feed pumps a bit. They are now sunken deeper in the floor which more closely match the plans. Some parts are rescaled. The center distribution box is now one per pump unit which, looking at Bills schematic appears to be more accurate.
I also added the Hotwell pump which is a scaled down and modified Feed pump.
I've begun to add the auxiliary equipment:


Finding a good auxiliary circulation pump example is rather difficult. Google come up with this one which may end up to be my model example:


This air pump was found in one of the Engineering documents which may be my model:


The recip room is coming along nicely. Most of the feed water system is in:


I added a bit of "sunlight" down the casing from Boat deck and it makes it a bit more interesting:


The shop door on E deck position is still a question. I think a person could pass through but it would be tight:


The plan is to finish the auxiliary equipment then move onto the main steam pipes.

Thanks.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestTue Apr-04-17 01:58 AM
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#54881, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 42


          

Hi Steve
Coming along very nicely, great to have a view of this equipment. I find it interesting how the piping looks so reasonable sweeping around the obstacles while on the plans it looks so complex. The diamond plate decking is looking better, the additional reflections and shadows on it make it look more natural... or did you add a cloud shadow filter?

The feed pumps do have only one quad valve delivery chest between each pair of cylinders, two valves from each cylinder to two delivery pipes. The 3 valve suction chests are actually one 6 valve chest. The supply pipes from the wye junction on the ceiling are spread a little farther apart to reach around the other farside pipes and then turn to get into the back center of the 6 valve chest. That leaves only the outer 4 pipes coming up through the floor to the chest. A colour detail is that I think the steam cylinder support rods, piston rods, valve gear and valve gear support are all a machined steel finish.

The sample circulation pump picture for the auxiliary condenser looks good. The engine room plan view suggests the scroll case in the foreground is about 3.5' diameter and the whole rig is about 5' front to back. The sample air pump picture is also good. At a width of 7' it suits the main air pumps in the turbine room. For the one with the auxiliary condenser size it to 4' wide. I would make a guess that the auxiliary condenser has the same shape as the surface heater. It is 11' by 8' in the plan view.

The other auxiliaries we will come to later include a number of general purpose duplex pumps. Picture 39 at http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/systems/propulsion/sackville/ is poor but is all that I could find. For the size of the foreground valve chest and the bolt headed check valve chest behind it I would make the silver steam and water cylinders much larger with the angled silver valve linkage mount in the center left the same. I think the blue rod supports the steam cylinder while the rusty one is the piston rod. The water cylinder is out of sight behind the check valve chest but a bit of it can be seen under the dummy's far cuff. This is really poor but will have to do as a starting point. The valve linkage works by the left cylinder completing a stroke and triggering the right cylinder's valve to run it. At the end of its stroke it triggers the left cylinder to run again. At the steam end there is the obviously needed shutoff on the supply line and the not so obvious shutoff on the exhaust line which is there to prevent backfeed from other pumps when this one is being worked on. The small silver pipes on the steam cylinder appear to be drain cocks which I don't think were common on pumps. There are a few simplex pumps too which are just half of a duplex. They include the lube pumps in the turbine room and the freshwater pumps which were made by Weir's and more likely have their style of valve gear on them, see picture 42.

If you are showing the Titanic specifically you could consider adding the Heating & Cooking surface heater on the port side. It looks the same as the Generator surface heater that you've drawn on the starboard side. Tucky documented it in this post http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=37959&mode=full .

You shop stores access question is a good one, we'll have to see how it works out when we go back to the catwalk question. You're already showing that the feed filter access platform was clearly needed.

Bill

  

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SteveFuryTue Apr-04-17 04:51 AM
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#54883, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 43


          

Thanks for the tips Bill.
Again I'll express a deep appreciation for her designers. For me to spend the time & effort to build this on a computer... To also know the real one was ripped apart to pieces... It's kind of weird that I get a sort of loss. So much more for the real design and shipyard builders.

It seems the stern had exploded when it hit bottom. I'm surprised more major parts haven't been found. Feed pumps & filters, heaters and things attached to the forward bulkhead.

I really wish they would have taken photos of the Olympic engine spaces before she was scrapped. Given the historic fate of the sisters.
-Steve

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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tuckyTue Apr-04-17 02:20 PM
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#54889, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

Hi Steve,

There was an additional heater installed on the Titanic on the port side of the forward bulkhead. See the article in the following link.

http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=37959&mode=full

Regards,

Steven Tuckwood

  

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Bill WestTue Apr-04-17 08:47 PM
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#54890, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 45


          

Hi Steven. Thanks for the pages from your "Elementary Engineering Knowledge" book. When I mentioned the duplex pumps to Steve I began to wonder if the book would help out with them too. At the bottom of pg130 it started to talk about Worthington-Simpson pumps, if it goes on to show drawings as good as the ones it used for the Weir feed pump it might be very useful. Could you take a look and perhaps share with us? If they do turn out to help I think TTSM has the cylinder sizes for proportioning the drawings to Titanic's pumps.

Bill

  

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tuckyTue Apr-04-17 11:30 PM
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#54892, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

Hi Bill,
The book only has one view of the pump.

I'll scan the rest of the book and send to you if you give me your email.
If not, I can scan and send to Ralph, I have his address already, and he can forward it to you if he has your address.

The following page is all that the book has on that vertical pump

Regards,

Steven Tuckwood




Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Bill WestWed Apr-05-17 12:38 AM
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#54893, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 47


          

Thanks for the quick reply. I think we are getting stuck on manufacturer's differences. The water end valve chest on that pump is typical of Worthington's horizontal pumps. The valves on the pump I showed in the HMCS Sackville picture is typical of Weir pumps and is a completely different look. The valve gear cross connection is also different. As the Olympic class used Harland & Wolff duplex pumps we are just going to be wild guessing unless we can find an H&W pump.

Thanks anyway, Bill

  

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tuckyWed Apr-05-17 01:01 AM
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#54894, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

Hi Bill,

There is a section view of the Thom, Lamont Vertical Duplex Pump as well as the Worthington Horizontal Duplex Pump if you are interested.

Regards,

Steven Tuckwood

  

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SteveFurySat Apr-08-17 07:03 PM
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#54920, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I had some time to spend on this today.
The auxiliary air pump and circulation pump is new. The suggestions Bill made have been done.
The blue line on the room's support poles mark the 5 foot level so you can get a spacial reference.

The circulation pump looks good sunken into the hole in the floor. I plan to do similar for the other equipment.




Someday I'll need to dirty up those sterile pumps:


The light up the casement on B deck shining downward illuminates the room more than I thought it would (My Radiosity is set to 10 bounces). The exterior wall plating, bulkheads etc are now "painted" white with some uneven shaded areas. The white reflective areas really brighten it up.

I think this one turned out kinda pretty:


Thanks Bill for the Aux pump reference. I'm gonna have to examine that photo real carefully to try and isolate what is what. Wish they didn't perch that stupid manikin over it! Probably gonna need to ad-hock most of it. But at least there's something to go on. Thanks.

Questions:
(1) Would it be possible for anyone to describe the recip engine throttle linkage(s).. Their position, shape (A wheel?) etc?
I understand there were also some maneuvering controls nearby, which a description would also be helpful.
(2) Where exactly were the telegraphs located?
(3) Were there any central location for pressure gauges? I assume most gauges were located near the place it was designed to measure (Near a valve, critical junction etc)?

Thank you,

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Karol_WSun Apr-09-17 02:31 AM
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#54922, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 50


          

Good Morning.

(1) Would it be possible for anyone to describe the recip engine throttle linkage(s).. Their position, shape (A wheel?) etc?
I understand there were also some maneuvering controls nearby, which a description would also be helpful.


There were a bunch of controls on Starting Platform:



1. Revolution counter - connected through linkages with crosshead of forward LP piston.

2. Levers for forward LP and HP cylinders drains, which were mounted on undersides of the cylinders.

3. Probably a wheel for Auxiliaries Relief Valve. Port side only.

4. Lever for Quick-acting Cockburn Stop valve on forward side of bulkhead K.

5. Levers for Emergency Starting valves. They were supplying steam to forward LP and IP cylinders. They were discussed in 'Identification of auxiliary steam pipes in engine room.' thread some time ago:
http://www.titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=100&topic_id=54420&mesg_id=54420&page=2&topic_page=1#54514

6. Wheel of By-Pass valve. This valve was used to control engines in 'low revolutions mode'. Because it was much smaller than Main Stop Valve, it was easier to control the engines during manuvering in ports.

7. (Not marked on this plan, but it was there) Wheel of Turbine Starting Valve, port side only.

8. Wheel of Main Stop Valve.

Levers 9 and 10 were mounted very close to each other.

9. Lever for operating Browns' Steam-hydraulic engine of Reversing Gear. (both sides)

10. Lever for operating Browns' Steam- hydraulic engine of Change-over valves in Turbine Room. Port side only.

11. Levers for IP and aft LP cylinders drains.

There might also be a lever for Main Stop valve drain, but i will not guess where that was mounted.

(2) Where exactly were the telegraphs located?

If we base on greaser Frederic Scott testimony - all four telegraphs were mounted on aft side of inboard columns of HP clyinders.

(3) Were there any central location for pressure gauges? I assume most gauges were located near the place it was designed to measure (Near a valve, critical junction etc)?

H&W most likely was not using a central gauges panels. I think gauges spread through the Starting Platform in places where route from junction to gauge would be as short as possible.

I would wait for Bill West and see what he have to say about this. Since he have better knowledge on all those details than i.

Regards.

Karol

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Bill WestSun Apr-09-17 02:16 PM
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#54927, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 51


          

More excellent progress Steve. As a youth I walked through factories that looked just like your last picture, it's that real, complete with that ugly institutional green that was once popular. Your skylight lighting test is great, I didn't think the natural light would reach that far.

Our ship was brand new but here's a post of how a boiler room looks after 35 years of paint and wear http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=40730&mesg_id=40823 . Notice how despite the black paint the ladderway is visible because its edges reflect as light grey. Sounds like an ambitious challenge for your surface and lighting settings.

The circulation pump had a hull inlet to the aft center of the scroll case and a riser from the bottom outboard side of it up to the end of the condenser. The forward end of the condenser had a discharge at the top out through the hull. For the air pump there is a characteristic "S" pipe between the water cylinders with the inlet pipe from mid bottom of the condenser going directly to the bottom head of the cylinder. There is no intake selection valve chest.

Thank you Karol for that excellent mark up. The throttle handles are a wheel with a spinning handle on the underside. The spokes slope upwards to the hub, there I think it acts on a foot long Acme thread on the vertical shaft to pull the shaft down through the mounting arm or let it back up. As you have described the turbine starting wheel is between, lower and inboard of the other 2 wheels. Its bracket is on the aft edge of the column whose inner slope has been mis-drawn here. The shafts operated by #4 & 10 run under the lower catwalk all the way to their bulkhead. The controls tallied on the mark up are the extent of the maneuvering controls.

Back to Steve, if you are thinking of the telegraphs and gauge board it may be time to add the big end service I-beam I mentioned in post #16 because it and the thought of lowering parts from places up on the engines will limit the places we can hang things. The floor between the engines seems to be the only place to put parts down during work. The service beam shows in Karol's drawing.

There are one or two pictures of telegraphs and gauge boards in the Ulster Museum's RW Welch collection but it is a lot of searching to catch them. Use keyword Welch in the Photos category, Welch collection sub category at http://nmni.com/Home/Online-Collections.aspx?1=1&DisplayListing=False&Cat=501658&SubCat=502130&Term=Welch to see all 4100 pictures or try technical keywords.

I like Karol's info that the telegraphs were on the aft HP columns. They will need a simple route for the bicycle chains that operate them. Are the gauge boards maybe on the forward HP column? Paul Lee has a text ad from Fournier's that claims there were many temperature gauges too, with a considerable amount of tubing to bring them to a central location http://www.paullee.com/titanic/BL/index.php 1/3 the way down the page just below the whistle picture. Outside of refrigeration I have not seen much of temperature gauges in marine work in this period however. The underside of the lower catwalk is another possible place for a gauge board.

One other item to put in would be a small (1.5' x 2' ??) stand up writing desk with a sloping top for the engine room log book. It would have a shallow drawer or two as well. And maybe a level shelf at the top of the writing surface for the Chief's tea mug .....

Bill

  

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SteveFuryMon Apr-10-17 01:47 PM
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#54932, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 52
Mon Apr-10-17 01:52 PMby SteveFury

          

Thank you both for all that great information and encouragement.
I'll probably pause work on the auxiliaries and redo my engines, given the level of details within Karol's reference. There's too much "wrong" with the existing ones.

Bill I don't understand what you mean by the big end, and looking for the beam you mentioned.

I'm going to have to study Karol's post real hard and begin work on the new recips- There is less time to spend on this as of late... will see what I can do.
I -really- want to see it with the telegraphs in place. An engine room just 'ain't an engine room without them!

Edit:
I assume the measurements in Karol's pic reference is in meters?

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestMon Apr-10-17 11:37 PM
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#54936, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 53


          

Hi Steve
I want to add a bit more about the Ulster photo collection, I should have said select Photos/Harland and Wolff collection rather than Photos/Welch collection. On the listing page click the blue enlarge button below the picture and then click expand at the top right of the picture to get a decent view.
Put these catalogue numbers in the keyword box to see:
H241 -the German of 1898 showing gauges on pillars
H440 -the Minnehaha of 1900 showing telegraphs and a round rev counter at the right
H1030 -the 1906 Nieuw Amsterdam showing telegraphs, their chain casings and the back side of a gauge board
H1944 -one of the Britannic engine shots. The 2 handles on the reverser show, the second being the one for the turbine.

For terminology, on the connecting rod between the crank shaft and the piston rod, the crankshaft end is called the big end. But the other end isn't called the small end, it's the wrist pin... go figure.

The big end I beam is in the crotch of the engine pillars. On two of the cylinders the eye bolt is facing us and we can see the end of the U shaped trolley that hangs it on the beam. Note that the crotch is round, the flat line across it is the bottom of the crosshead guide plate on the inside of the pillar. The I beams show better in the end views of the engine on the http://hmhsbritannic.weebly.com/plans.html site that I mentioned earlier, one beam runs across the top of the reverser's crosshead slot. The beams appear to run all the way to the other engine. There is some catwalk information in those drawings too.

The Britannic drawings first appeared in "Engineering" (London), then were adapted for the French Journal "Genie Civil" (Civil Engineer) which is what Karol has posted. In the adaptation the information was simplified a bit, the Imperial measures were converted to metric and the text translated. So while HP is the same, IP became MP and LP became BP. I should mention again that the LP exhaust pipe is not in the exact same location because of the change to piston valves.

Bill

  

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SteveFuryMon Apr-10-17 07:59 PM
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#54935, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I've begun the 3rd version of the reciprocating engines this evening. One thing I've noticed is measurement discrepancies.

First thing I did was place the four connecting rods and spaced them out according to plan figures. Then I placed the 4 valve control rods and measured their placement between the connecting rods. Then I superimposed the plans in the background and adjusted the image size and position to match the two LP connecting rods.

Observe the image below.
With the outer rods reasonably close to placement within the crankshaft,the two inner rods are out of alignment with the crankshaft. Especially the HP rod. Also, the LP valve rods are positioned over the crankshaft joint.
I loaded the top image and adjusted its position and size so the two LP connecting rods are about center of the cylinders.
It appears the errors in the side drawing match the errors in the top drawing:


Now observe the rods and valve stems positioned according to the drawing, disregarding the inside measurements (The only measurement left according to plan are the outer two LP rods).
Things seems to match pretty close side to top view:


I'm going with the spacing in the drawing and not with the posted measurements so things line up.

That is just an observation I've made, maybe it might help someone in the future. Something to be aware of.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestTue Apr-11-17 12:37 AM
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#54937, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 54


          

European 1's have a serif that makes them look like a 7, the real 7's have a slash through them. Then there is a rounding in the conversion from Imperial measure so the middle set of measures, 2.18-2.00-2.13m which add to 6.31, are mated to a 6.32 space.

The spacing I get from the aft end including the valve stems is:
ALP- 6'11-3/8" -valve- 8'5-1/8" -IP- 7'2" -valve- 6'7" -valve- 7'0" -HP- 8'5-1/8" -valve- 6'11"3/8" -FLP
just between the piston rods:
ALP- 15'4-1/2" -IP- 20'9" -HP- 15'4-1/2" -FLP
in Metric:
ALP- 2.11m -valve- 2.57m -IP- 2.18m -valve- 2.00m -valve- 2.13m -HP- 2.57m -valve- 2.11m -FLP
and:
ALP- 4.68m -IP- 6.32m -HP- 4.68m -FLP

If this still doesn't fit the scan I would be inclined to stretch it between the cylinders to get all to fit.

Bill

  

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SteveFuryTue Apr-11-17 05:58 AM
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#54938, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 56


          

Bill I can't thank you enough for all of that, especially the H&W photo links. Those I beam trolleys was a major miss of mine in the first round of modeling.
I saw those right away in the pic of Karol's post and wondered what the heck they were. I assume each was bolted to the inside Cross head guide of both engines.

I have a lot of careful photo and plans analyzing before I begin to build anything.

I hope the folks here won't mind if I make a post with a lot of "what is this device?"

Thanks, very appreciated..

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Ralph CurrellTue Apr-11-17 07:18 AM
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#54940, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 56


          

Hi Steve and Bill,

Bill's figures are correct, but it must be remembered that Britannic's engines were not identical to Olympic's and Titanic's. Specifically, the distance between the HP and IP cylinders was 9 inches greater on Britannic. So if you're modelling Titanic, Bill's 6'-7" dimension above should be changed to 5'-10".

This may be the cause of some of those drawing problems too. You're using an Olympic top view and a Britannic side view, and the two will not correspond exactly.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Bill WestTue Apr-11-17 10:00 AM
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#54941, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 58


          

Learn something new every day, thanks Ralph!

Bill

  

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Bill WestTue Apr-11-17 10:15 AM
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#54942, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 59


          

Where was the 9" added in the engine base? Was the ALP-IP and HP-FLP spacing reduced or is the whole engine longer? If the latter was it made closer to one bulkhead or both? I guess Steve will find this in laying the two ship's plans over each other but it means that ALP-FLP length can't be used for scaling the jpeg scans, IP-HP spacing will have to be used at first.

Bill

  

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Ralph CurrellTue Apr-11-17 11:57 AM
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#54944, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 60


          

Hi Bill,

It seems the whole engine was lengthened by 9". As best I can tell from the plans it was lengthened toward the forward bulkhead (and possibly also an inch or so aft; the plans aren't precise enough to say for sure).

Here are the dimensions as given in TTSM vol.1 pg.304:

Cylinder-valve distances:
ALP 6' 11-3/8"
IP 7' 2"
HP 7' 0"
FLP 6' 11-3/8"

Cylinder-Cylinder distances:
ALP-IP 15' 4-1/2"
IP-HP 20' 0"
HP-FLP 15' 4-1/2"

I believe these came from the Olympic drawing office notes (aka the "Andrews Notebook") but they should be correct for Titanic also.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Bill WestTue Apr-11-17 04:16 PM
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#54946, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 61


          

Hi Ralph, guess I haven't been re-reading TTSM enough, thanks. For an engine position the E\R plan views give me 9'3" from the aft bulkhead to LPA and 9'0" from LPF to the forward bulkhead.

Hi Steve. http://marconigraph.com/titanic/telegraphs/mgy_eotelegraphs1.html describes the telegraph system. Little of it impacts your drawing but I thought you might like to see what's inside the chain casings.

Bill

  

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Ralph CurrellThu Apr-13-17 08:16 AM
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#54950, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 62
Thu Apr-13-17 08:34 AMby Ralph Currell

          

Hi Bill,

Yes, those measurements to the bulkheads seem right to me based on the engine room elevation. But looking at those three big beams running athwartship at the base of the cylinders it's a pretty tight squeeze. I'll take a closer look to see if everything fits.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Bill WestThu Apr-13-17 08:51 AM
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#54951, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 63


          

Good Morning Ralph,
We're thinking of the same thing. I measured on the floor plan and the columns don't appear to line up with the frames as one would expect. Then I realized it doesn't matter because they are on the keel girder.

The cross beams don't matter either because there arrival in the side rooms at about 5' above the floor means that there is some local framing to connect them with the hull side forces coming in through the deck plates anyway.

Bill

  

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Ralph CurrellThu Apr-13-17 08:21 PM
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#54955, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 64


          

Hi Bill,

As best I can tell the vertical columns (by which I mean the girder columns, not the engine columns) are right on frame lines 36, 41 and 46. But the cross beams are offset aft by 13-1/2 inches, which is just barely enough to fit between the engine cylinders. This is mentioned in TTSM vol.1 pg.83, but it took a bit of looking before I found it.

Britannic's column and beam arrangement would necessarily have been a bit different.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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SteveFuryFri Apr-14-17 09:50 PM
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#54961, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

The new engines are coming along nicely.
They are ending up a Britannic-Olympic-Titanic hybrid. Every model seems the same after staring at them for so long.
I ended up using the Britannic side view as my profile template but Olympic/Titanic cylinders.

Version 3 engines have beefier cylinders, connecting rods,piston rods,Crankshaft etc. New Y columns, frames and base casting. I got rid of those horrible cylinder heads.
More detail throughout yet fewer vertices/polygons so it will render faster.

This is what I have thus far, put in a large room for better viewing:




Ok now down to the business.
I've been studying and analyzing engine control linkages. Geeze it's difficult to tell what's what. I begun by isolating the Britannic profile shot:


I came up with this linkage diagram guess:


If that is even close then I'll probably go with that one. (Pay no attention to valve appearances-the point was to map of linkages). I wasn't able to find any other diagrams of the sort.

My linkage between the stop valve lever and stop valve itself seems kinda odd...And I am assuming the long rod spanning past the after end of the engine operates the turbine room change over engine?
3 (What I believe to be) rotational shafts intersect into what I labeled "block". That's a mystery to me. Not sure if it's just a simple bearing block or some sort of gearing etc to (possibly) operate the throttle for the maneuvering wheel linkage.. notice the link from the maneuvering wheel connects to the bottom rod in the block-Nothing else is found connecting with it.

Some of the wheels have a tan collar on top of the bearing. I also assume that is a screw-jack assembly to transform the rotational movement of the wheel to raise/lower the push rod above it?

The only other way I could see to transfer the rotational movement of the wheels was to run its rod up the side of the engine to a gearbox at the top with a worm gear (Eliminating the belcrank).

That probably makes no sense at all. I've been pondering this too long. Yer brain gets jacked after a while.

I put a few red circles on the Britannic profile. I assume it is the same device pictured below:


Does anyone know what in the world that could be, and more important is how its hooked up?

**DON'T** believe things actually connect this way. Just figuring it out.
I'm having way too much fun building this model than I deserve.
Thanks,

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Karol_WSat Apr-15-17 01:45 AM
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#54963, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 66
Sat Apr-15-17 01:46 AMby Karol_W

          

Good Morning Steve.

In term of this 'device' - there are two possibilities here.

1st - a lever to operate engines indicators. Below i'm posting a picture of such indicator. I am not able to say if Titanic indicators would look like that, or not.


2nd - lever to operate an oiling 'feeders'(i do not know coorect term), but this is very unlikely, because i never heard that Olympic class had anything like that.

Regards.

Karol

  

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Bill WestSat Apr-15-17 11:35 PM
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#54969, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 67


          

Hi Steve the new engine is looking good. Some details:

The rib around the cylinders is in the casting. In the assembled engine the sheet metal jacket covers this.

I'm not sure of the cross head guide shape you used the first time. I think it is like this type, duplicated to 2 sides https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Slipper_guide_crosshead_(Heat_Engines,_1913).jpg . I think ours has an extra bar at each side of the shoe rather than having the base machined down to leave a depression for it to run in.

The main reverse shaft has a lever at each cylinder. On the end of the lever, tipped at an angle, is a rectangular slot with an adjusting bolt and locknut. This moves the pivot for the link to the eccentric and adjusting it varies the cutoff for each cylinder. The possible uses of this include balancing the power from the cylinders, giving up power for efficiency on an exceptionally long overseas trip and giving up efficiency for power if a faulty cylinder has been blocked out of use. The lever shows in the Britannic plans fig 3.

There are relief valves for the top & bottom of each cylinder. The extra 2 on the HP & IP valves are for the HP-IP and IP-LP receivers.

The inside of the crank pits in the engine foundation won't have lightening holes. The walls will have an oil streak in line with the edges of big end.

It's a good idea to air the controls and devices out, drawing a first guess at them will usually get one's errors (mine) challenged but the net result is to end up with a good statement where we had nothing before. I hope "Atlantic Run" is reading this for the controls on his model.

When you get the drawings done we could probably use a text layer with comments about what the gadgets are. It would be informative to the viewer.

Pretty well everything has simple answers, the most hi tech thing in the whole room is the Aspinall governor which is more smarts than fancy parts. All the vertical rods are a push motion to a lever & shaft and the valves are a push motion rather than rotating the stem. Your "block" is indeed just a plate with 3 shafts/levers pivoting in it.

I've marked up your drawing as follows:



On the IP column your left circle is just a bracket for the oil tube and the right circle is the tube in the extended position.

The throttles are a nut thread in the handle hub that pulls down a foot long coarse Acme thread on the shaft. A pin would stop the wheel from being wound off the bottom. An Acme thread looks like
.

The starting valves aren't really an emergency and they're not for normal starting. They are for the occasional time the engine stops with the HP on dead center. Pulling one of the levers presses a valve in a small box shaped chest and lets auxiliary steam into either the IP or LP cylinder to rotate the engine enough to get the HP off dead center. Which valve you use depends upon which way the HP approached center and which way you now want the engine to now turn. The delivery pipe for the IP passes though the exhaust side of the HP valve chest to get to the IP. The delivery to the LP is into the IP-LP receiver pipe.

The 4 indicator cocks are at the upper end of the cylinders on a tube from the lower end. They look like the one with the handle in this link https://archive.org/stream/steamengineindic00houg#page/52/mode/2up except that the pipes enter vertically while the indicator mount remains upright to one side of the cock. The removable indicator has a piston portion directly above the mount and a chart drum above and to the left of it per https://archive.org/stream/steamengineindic00houg#page/24/mode/2up . The indicators are driven by a cord to a reducing lever from each cross head. The drive lever shows in the "Engineering" drawings from the Linda Hall library.

The other connection to each side of each crosshead is an oil cup feeding it through a telescopic tube. That's the circled item in your last picture. The bent lever below it is a bell crank with an extremely short output arm to the rev counter.

For the rev counter I'll suggest one from http://prestonservices.co.uk/category/parts/instruments/revolution-counters/ . Perhaps this rectangular body http://prestonservices.co.uk/item/hardings-improved-revolution-counter-4/ but maybe with these numbers http://prestonservices.co.uk/item/hardings-improved-revolution-counter-3/ or even better the brass numbers on this gauge board (2/3's of the way down) http://www.subchat.com/readflat.asp?Id=965103&p=1#965247 . Those are Ashcroft brand gauges with the engine maker's name inserted. A very common style in US railroading.

There is also the drain traps but the drawings only show some of the piping. The crank bearing oil feeds likewise only show in photos. I would have to look up whether the oil cooling is down at the bearing or at the supply source.

Bill

Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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SteveFurySun Apr-16-17 02:18 AM
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#54970, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 68


          

Bill that's a huge amount of information, it may take some time to digest it all. Thank you.

Really, I (We) are learning so much more about this ship than I ever thought I would. Really amazing the talent here.

I've been busy all day with this.
All of the eccentric push rods are new and beefier. The long, main eccentric shaft is a new more authentic tapering shape. It's frame bearings are closer to the plans.

Bill I only read your post about an hour ago and made a quick correction at the cycle counter- and eliminated the band on the cylinders... And I believe I got all the levers and wheels in, as seen below. The only lever I really question my linkage design is of the turbine/condenser change over lever under the reversing gear lever. I added a post out of the reversing steam cylinder and mounted the lever and linkage to the long rotational shaft.

It's turning out pretty good. Note this is the Starboard engine and the appropriate levers and wheels will be removed once the engine is done and mirrored to the port side. The green cycle counter will be replaced once I have a chance to review your links. None of the upper linkages or wheel mounts are in yet (The wheels are just floating in air):



About 95% of this engine version is brand new from scratch.
I'm so excited about this project and it will look especially cool looking around it in 3D!

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestSun Apr-16-17 03:14 PM
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#54974, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 69


          

Fabulously realistic Steve, well done.

The bits:
-the spokes on the control wheels are straight rather than arched.
-the two emergency steam stops are both mounted on the port engine. The aft handle controls the port steam and the forward one the starboard steam. The horizontal shafts are concentric.
-the turbine changeover is run from a duplicate of the reverser's swinging handle. A bit shorter and hanging from the same pivot.
-the reverser's vertical proportions need a check against the HospitalShipBritannic end views. The bottom of the hydraulic cylinder is above the changeover engine shaft. The center of the steam cylinder is about in line with the bolt joint at the bottom of the engine columns. And the little arm out the front that supported the hand pump lever can go now.

I can see an engineer standing there now, ready for "all ahead full".

Bill

  

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SteveFuryTue Apr-18-17 06:29 PM
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#54976, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I've spent the last couple of days in research, mainly about engine order telegraphs in general to help with this model.

Karol's reference to Fredrick Scott lead me to the Federal Inquiries.
http://www.titanicinquiry.org/BOTInq/BOTInq06Scott01.php
Fredrick testified:
***
5524. Were there four telegraphs?
- She got four telegraphs, two emergency ones.
5525. Two emergency?
- Yes, and two for the main engine.
***

I've done a TON of searching for the role of emergency telegraphs. All the results found are for modern versions which are apparently used as a back up for the main intercommunication between the bridge and engine room (What ever it is they use today).

I found layouts of the position of the main engine(s) and emergency telegraph placements on the Olympic bridge but nothing at all how the emergency ones were used.
Does anyone know if the emergency ones were used as a backup for the main ones?

I read somewhere the cables can jump off the pulleys if the operators are too rough with them so that thought seems plausible. Or were they possibly used for very slow maneuvering?

Does anyone have a preference of the exact placement of the telegraphs in my model? The image below seems most logical (to me), especially given the long chain/cable housing which will (I assume) run all the way up to D deck. I haven't yet seen a post or wall mounted telegraph which the control cables/chains run to the floor except if mounted on a pedestal.



I also discovered a 5th telegraph system... The transmitter for the boiler room telegraphs. I found this transmitter image:

(Source http://www.copperas.com/titanic/boiler.htm)

I suppose Titanic's would have 6 of those frontal windows, one for each boiler room. I assume the order windows would be back-lit. I also assume the transmitter unit would be placed on the forward WTB.

BTW
I find parts of the Federal Titanic inquiry quite interesting (Some not so much). A great read.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestWed Apr-19-17 02:27 PM
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#54980, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 71


          

Hi Steve

I think the emergency telegraph was just for a breakdown of the regular one. Nowadays the bridge has remote control of the engines and the backup is the little VHF radio absolutely everybody in the deck and engine depts. has on their belt. If you are still here Morten, are you required to clip it to your pajamas when you are sleeping? LoL

I was waiting for more renderings to see what space was available for guessing the telegraph location. Can you turn the room columns and catwalks back on at this moment to help judge?

A location aft of the reverser is a bit around a corner. I'm guessing either wall mounts on the now crowded engine column or two hanging on each side of the central room column. But that middle room column is actually too far aft and the forward one shows nothing in the Marconigraph/Electrician telephone picture.

Because of the water tight bulkheads the chain route to the engine room likely runs along Scotland road on E deck. How about if from there it dropped straight down the inner walls of the E & F corridors to the shop/stores on G deck and ran directly inward along the ER room I-beam towards the forward ER room column? Just after it passes between the LPA and the HP it is a straight drop for the chain case to the forward side of the HP engine column. The simplicity of such a route and the availability of space just forward of the HP column makes me think this might be the location for our telegraphs. Looking at your last engine rendering I don't see any other available and convenient place and this one is practical to get to.

So how about taking a single sided telegraph and mount it on a pipe projecting from the fore side of the HP column. Add a second head forward for the emergency receiver. Do the same on the other engine and then add the Boiler room telegraph and Kilroy control under the port telegraphs. Cooperas and http://titanic-model.com/articles/tech/TechFeatureAugust2005.htm have pictures of both the single BR telegraph transmitter and the Kilroy transmitter. This puts the all the controls in arm's reach from the reverser to the telegraphs. If you can draw this up I think we will be able to judge whether it is plausible and if it seems a likely guess location for now.

For our other mystery how about if we try hanging a gauge board from the catwalks either above the telephones or over a desk placed between the reversers?

Bill

  

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SteveFuryWed Apr-19-17 04:50 PM
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#54981, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 72


          

Thanks for the reply Bill.
I checked my current engines with the Britannic end view and I am processing some adjustments. Mostly adjusting Y column thickness, cross heads etc. Have to redo the lower mounts for the cylinders. I hope to get that completed soon.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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SteveFurySun Apr-23-17 01:04 AM
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#54988, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Good day.

I've been really busy with this final engine version. Everything should be scaled correctly according to the plans.
The geometry is just about finished here. Looks good I think:





Some major updates: Now correctly scaled in all views. New Y columbs & connected bracing. The base is a bit wider. New, properly shaped lower cylinder mounts. A new reversing gear. All links & rods in place (Except the one which goes to the turbine valve). New crosshead guides. Way too many smaller updates to mention:



Something to note is that all my connecting rods, eccentrics etc are in an incorrect position.
That will be corrected during the animation setup. I would only be wasting my time to do it now.
They look a bit chaotic here but that's mainly because the Britannic plans show them trimmed to full forward-So that's how they are here. Given that plus the parts aren't in their proper place in the crankshaft it makes it more messy.

This is the starboard engine and it includes controls which do not belong there.
Once I am all done with this side I'll be mirroring it over to the other side to create the
port engine. I have a LOT of things to do on this side to prepare it for mirroring. Last thing I'll want to do is create more geometry once that is done. Once mirrored then I'll remove the incorrect controls.

Once this side is all done then there's a TON of things to do before I can import them back in my ER.
Just letting 'yall know that this project is still active.

Some of today's closeup renders:




The rods sorted themselves out pretty good:



New throttle, manouvering and governor engine:



The blowout valves are located high inside the framing. One pair of valves in the forward and one pair in the after:



I used a similar valve for the emergency start. The valves connect to a bellcrank and down to the levers at the starting platform:



The geometry here is almost done. The only major thing left is to run the plumbing. Bill, thanks for the schematics you posted elsewhere they explain a lot.
I'll be posting again after a while when I have the other side mirrored. I'm pretty jazzed about it.
Thank you for looking.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestSun Apr-23-17 04:28 PM
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#54991, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 74


          

Hi Steve, that's good enough to be an H&W sales brochure!

As you will be copying this and then inserting it into the room drawing I'm going to mention an assortment of items. Some of these are petty but I don't want any of them to create needless extra work later.

First picture:
-here's a suggestion for the reverser mounting pads based on looking at the Britannic site drawings.



Fourth Picture:
-the crosshead guides look good. That's a drip trough across the bottom of them.
-the turbine warm up handle should be below the main throttle.
-I'm wondering if the handles might be steel rather than the bronze look we have now.
-here's a sketch about the handle shapes. The reverser handles show in the Sothern book we've been using.



Sixth picture:
-I think the aft mounting for the control shafts is cast like a flanged plate rather than having long hubs. The mounting for the governor throttle engine occupies the space aft of here. The main throttle lever is on the forward side and the other two are on the aft side of the plate.
-I don't know how the space works but both governor shaft levers point to inboard.

Seventh picture:
-the bypass valve has an elbow on the bottom turning into the main throttle body.
-the governor throttle engine pushes directly on the lever on the butterfly valve shaft, the lever would be horizontal. The valve body casting includes a half ring that loops around the outer end of valve stem to support it. Its circle shows in the side view.

Eighth picture:
-the drain cocks are under the valves/cylinders. When we trace out the piping to the traps we may find that we have to extend the operating rods.

Ninth picture:
-an alternative for the starting valve levers would be to reach under the valve casting and push or pull vertically on the valve stems.

A couple of silly thoughts:
-when you do the animation of the crankshaft it would be novel to also move the reverser handle and maybe spin the throttle wheels as the viewer varies the video play.
-even more novel would be to send your finished file to a 3D printing outfit. I'd sure like to have one of these on my desk :) .

Bill

Attachment #1, (gif file)
Attachment #2, (gif file)

  

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SteveFurySun Apr-23-17 08:23 PM
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#54993, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 75


          

Thanks Bill.
I got much of the plumbing in today. Man it's difficult to maneuver more stuff like steam pipes up above the long eccentric control shaft among all those rods. I spent a good part of the day just running the supply pipe to the emergency start valves, the reversing gear and the governor unit.

Man you're observant!
I hurriedly assembled that governor servo/cylinder unit. Its in such an obscure place. Instead I just put the pivot to the butterfly bellcrank and left it there.

Regarding the emergency start valves.
If I understand correctly, your suggestion is to eliminate the top-of-frame bellcranks and just mount the valves there? I could probably whip up a pair of cylindrical valves which the actuator works perpendicular instead of parallel to their body.

Reversing gear handles-
The original Browne diagram had them pointing out to the side instead of down, as they are in my previous versions. Is the suggestion to put them back as I had them before?

I'll probably leave the bulk of the rest of the stuff as it is. There's so much going on, especially up above among the bellcranks & shafts that changing one thing will necessitate changing more stuff.

But I want to get the most obvious stuff reasonable right

3D pringing.
I have a Makerbot mini https://store.makerbot.com/printers/replicator-mini/ (got it more than half off at Sams). I too have been thinking about a printable version. I'll probably do that someday and upload it to thingieverse.

Thanks, as always.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestMon Apr-24-17 12:13 AM
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#54994, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 76


          

Hi Steve.

Maneuvering pipes in -there are features on the drawings that I have wondered about, you're actually trying to answer them. 3D is a lot of work to create but it sure gives a great visualization, thanks for doing this.

Starting valves -I was just noting that a long lever reaching from the pull rod into the midpoint of the valve casting and having a pivot half way could also do the job.

Reverser -oops, yes you did have it better before. But I would still raise the handle closer to the curved bar. I find it interesting that the Brown's drawing only shows 3 notches in the bar, on a steam locomotive it is finely toothed like you had drawn. That allows adjusting the cutoff to get the best efficiency for the desired speed and necessary power.

Bill

  

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SteveFurySun Apr-30-17 10:06 AM
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#55006, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Hello.
I've finished with the reciprocating engines. Lots and lots of changes. I followed many of Bill's suggestions (Thanks). Added the rest of the plumbing, baring and rev gear valves and too many other tweaks to list here.
It is easy to keep going as it is never "good enough" so I kinda had to come to a final stopping point.

Below is a couple last photos in the test room. I am all done with the engine except for the auxiliary blow-off valve and associated wheel which will go on the port side. The plumbing is installed (Thanks Bill for the schematics posted elsewhere). The small pipe sticking out straight forward and parallel with the HP input is the aux drain for the Rev gear, the "L" shaped pipe sticking out amid ship then turning forward (Superimposed over the HP input pipe) is the connection for regulated steam. The pipe running from under the IP cylinder down the Y column to the floor is from the drain cock valves to the (supposed) port hotwell tank:



Shown below is the piping and control for the baring gear. Also the forward drain cock pipe to the (supposed) starboard hotwell tank:



One easily missed change is the new drain cock valves. They are now bolted to the cylinder bottom and their actuating rods follow the proper upward angle up from the bottom, according to the Britannic forward engine view:



When I mirrored over to port and put them into the reciprocating room model, it was surprising how much bulkier these engines are than the previous version.
These are built with the Britannic side and front view backdrop and Titanic cylinder head top view. They are really and truly a monstrosity!

The necessity of the skewed position of the engines became more apparent as we'll need the additional rear space for catwalk stairs. There's not all that much room for the stairs between the exhaust LP big-end pipes.

Each after end is rotated 1 degree outward. I didn't take any actual measurements between the port and starboard frames but 1 degree seemed to be enough. I bet it would also put our propellers at or near their proper spacing (If they were to be made).

Speaking of stairs-
When I did the previous catwalk stairs, one obstacle discovered was getting around the inter-cylinder I beams. To create enough headroom for someone to ascend-descend without clobbering their head.

Here the crotch I-beams (I know there's a joke there somewhere) are installed which will pose more of a challenge for stairs.
This room is filling right up. The necessity for doing a 360 view is more apparent.

Notice how much more light is admitted through the forward casing to Boat deck. The operating area of these engines become more apparent here. The room seems to be getting smaller.
The valve gearing,main rods etc are now in their proper place. Still trimmed to full forward:



I'll probably mount two telegraphs onto each Y beam column, the same one which has the drain cock plumbing:



Each reverse gear has two cut-off valves:



You can see how really BIG these monsters are in the ariel view:



I did a few 4K renderings of these. Wow about an hour to render one frame (on an Intel i7 octo core). A 1280x720 resolution is about 12 minutes each which is more manageable. Radiosity is set to 12 bounces. Volumetrics is also possible, which adds "Thickness" to the air (as if observing light beams in front of a window) but multiplies the time by a lot. I am currently at 1,389,929 vertices and 96,101 polygons. Fine for photos and cinema but this would have to be redone for any gaming purposes.

I have the room plumbing worked out for the supply steam and I'll post the plan later. Also began planning a 3D printable model. You'd be able to download the files and print them yourself or send them off to a printing company like Shapeways.

A couple questions if you don't mind. I've done a lot of telegraph research and there doesn't seem to be much of a standard one style to the other. You google "Titanic telegraph) and the sort to find endless styles.
Does the one below seem a likely model candidate with its STOP,STAND BY,DEAD SLOW,SLOW,HALF and FULL markings?

Also for future references, does anyone know the engine RPM targets for those speeds? I believe FULL with a full head of steam would be 78 RPM.

Thanks and enjoy,

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestMon May-01-17 12:42 AM
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#55011, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 78


          

Looking grand Steve!! This is being very informative about what the machinery spaces were really like. By the time you get the refrigeration engines and the other pumps in the only free space is going to be under the grand staircase ...oops, except that one of the service winches may be under there.

Just to add to the crowding, the Britannic plans show that the beams supporting the top catwalks reach all the way from one engine to the other.

For the telegraphs I would take the Marconigraph article (post #62) as being the most reliable info on their appearance. Parks Stephenson's art there appears to be based on Father Browne's photograph and agrees with the later Michael McMillan art you found.

My impression of the speeds associated with full, half, slow, etc. is that they vary. The Bridge advises what they want for each when they are in harbour, then when they are in passages like Southampton Water or Lower New York Bay and then again when they are in the open ocean. There is a minimum speed below which the rudder is ineffective, there may be crosswinds to cope with and many harbours have rules about speeds because of the wake disturbing other ships or eroding the shoreline. So the Bridge may have a mixed bag of speeds they want to have available. For an animation full-half-quarter-eighth revs might be sufficient.

Bill

  

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SteveFuryMon May-01-17 06:31 PM
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#55014, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Below is the steam supply map I came up with.
It's a combination of the forward bulkhead diagram posted from the Ship Magnificent and Bill's schematics. A sort of hybrid. I plan to incorporate the second contact heater which does not exist on the Britannic.
This is probably not perfect but I think it will do well in this application:



It's kind a a faux 3d view.
Maybe it might help someone.
Regards,

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestTue May-02-17 06:35 PM
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#55019, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 80


          

That's a nice approach to illustrating the pipes Steve. The only bits I noticed are that there is no contact heater at the bottom right and that the the turbine starting steam connection is a mystery. Because it is larger and only feeds a very low pressure area I'm beginning to wonder if it actually draws from an auxiliary exhaust line. I was hoping your 3D work would help us see where it could possibly connect in that area of the forward bulkhead.

Bill

  

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SteveFurySat May-06-17 08:13 AM
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#55036, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Ok here's a cool update.

I believe I have all the pumps in place except the aft WTB hydraulic and the air pump for the cooking heater.

Here's a regular render. Please note the camera has an extreme fish-eye effect to get more into the photos:

Starboard side standing forward looking aft:


Same side looking forward:


The next photos are really why I began this project, to render immersive 360 views which you can look around.
Below are some of my first 360 renders. They look strangely distorted unless viewed from a special 3d goggle. They are straight and true as if you are "there" when viewed through the viewers.

The goggles can be a DIY project (Lots of tutorials online) or cheap google cardboard such as this:
https://www.amazon.com/Cardboard-Virtual-Reality-Compatible-Smartphone/dp/B01A4DPWEQ/ref=br_lf_m_wv2ez8gw8qnj52y_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&s=wireless

I am viewing these on the Samsung Gear VR:
https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Gear-VR-Virtual-Warranty/dp/B01HU3J9QA/ref=sr_1_4?s=wireless&ie=UTF8&qid=1494077395&sr=1-4&keywords=gear+vr

These views are SUPER cool and I'll be cooking in stereo soon. This view is particularly interesting to look around at the various controls and upward to notice the light streaming down from the casement to Boat deck:


This one has an interesting perspective of "floating: between the engines:


This is the same position as the regular photo already shown but rather fascinating to look around:


I also did an engine animation test.
Basically to ensure there was enough clearance between various moving parts and to test the eccentrics. I thought you may find it interesting so I posted it.
It's about 70 RPM:
https://youtu.be/3Dyr5d9eulc

These will be better when the engines and pumps are running. I've been surfing around YouTube for sound effect candidates. I've found a few. Unfortunately most of the sound found on YouTube are of low quality. Some problems:
*People talking
*Knocking, worn out engines
*Electric motors predominate everything else
I believe the ER would have been far quieter than most of the YouTube videos display.
I found a couple large electric ventilation fans up above, but I think the loudest sounds would have been from the clacking auxiliary pumps etc and not from the reciprocating engines themselves. Certainly not loud knocking sounds. I bet those clunks are from excessive main rod play from worn out bearings/bushings.

Enjoy..

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestTue May-09-17 11:33 PM
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#55056, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 82


          

Hi Steve, sorry for not being able to get back sooner. I'm impressed with seeing all the pumps laid out, it gets busy in there.

I went looking at the cheap 3d glasses but then realized I was missing the obvious, I don't have a small tablet/smartphone!! But I could still understand the mid room view to see how it is coming together. I can see the virtue of being able to walk through the room but I would have to catch up on today's gadgets. Then I saw you mention prints, do I understand correctly that the lenses would give much of the effect when looking at a print? Or would I need a viewing copy of the file and a program to show it?

The look was great, then you threw in that fantastict that video clip!! Thanks.

Bill

  

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SteveFurySun May-07-17 05:19 PM
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#55040, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I worked a long time on these telegraph positions. My first priority was to ensure they could all be seen from the turbine door as per the Frederic Scott testimony. Second priority was to establish possible chain/cable conduit routing. As we know the conduit would need few bends as possible.

My first attempt was with both telegraphs mounted on the inboard side of the aft IP Y column leg.
That had a few serious problems.
*Not enough room on the column to be side to side so I attempted one on top of each other. The drum diameters are 2.5'. The bottom telegraph had to be high enough to clear the bottom foot of the Y column. First problem is the upper part of the top drum is about 8' off the ER floor. Second problem is no viable way to run the conduit. I tried to run it straight up, take a 90 degree bend forward to the WTB, then 90 degree up to E deck then 90 degree through the WTB. That's too many bends. Another issue was the telegraphs stuck out into the working space of the room too much.
See the pic below. Camera is at the turbine door:



Visibility is the only positive thing in that photo.

Then I did a sort of "buckshot" of telegraphs. Some double sided units and single sided units on the columns. Even some scattered around the floor.
Each had its own positives and negatives but none of them seemed proper:



Really the only viable place was between the IP and LP Y columns.
Also, the only realistic path for a reasonable conduit design would be straight up, passing through the various engine parts. Only one area was possible.

The conduit came down in an area where top-and-bottom telegraphs were again not feasible due to the column footing. Again it caused an 8' high telegraph.

Side by side telegraphs seemed to be the way to go. So I built a solid, heavy cast mount between the IP and LP columns and bolted the telegraph bases.
It seems most proper to me. Fredrick could see all of them and the conduit routing is ultra simple, just one 90 degree bend (Once out of the telegraph mount) and straight over to the floor level of E deck.

I just don't see any other practical way to mount them other than floor pedestals between the Y columns:



Looks like a great place for a gauge board. What do you think?



You can see how tight the area is for the conduit:


And how it takes one turn over to the WTB:


I also wanted to make a quick comment about the copyright notice.
Most of the better renders have the notice and all have watermarks.
I don't mind at all if they are copied for personal use. I especially encourage the download/copy of the 360 renders for your personal enjoyment.
The reason is that I don't want to see my hard work appear in someone's sales advertisement, for example.

Thanks and ENJOY!!
-Steve

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Ralph CurrellMon May-08-17 11:01 AM
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#55041, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 83


          

Hi Steve,

Great work so far. The telegraph location is a tricky problem, and I doubt you'll find an arrangement everyone will agree with. Have you considered having some of them suspended beneath the walkways?

One small cosmetic detail I can suggest is to have the telegraph faces white with dark letters. This is how they appear in any Harland & Wolff -built engine room I've seen photos of. The dark background and light letters we see on the bridge telegraphs is probably required for backlighting, which is not an issue in the engine room.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Bill WestTue May-09-17 11:38 PM
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#55057, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 84


          

Good looking Steve. But I'd still favor what I wrote in post #72, I can't see the telegraph being that far away from the controls. I think the similar and equally accessible location between the forward LP and the HP is more likely. Yes that is too far to read, from the turbine room door and the stairs are going to be in the way in the way but Frederick Scott could hear the telegraph and see that someone is there so I suspect he either stepped into the room a ways or he surmised the commands from the bell and people's actions.

Your chain access up the side of the engine is good but I wonder if it has to go to the side hallway before going forward as the boiler room uptakes would be in the way of a direct route forward. A few turns in the system ought to be okay.

Another aid to fitting the telegraphs is that smaller ones would be sufficient, maybe 16-18 inches diameter? While the bridge has P & S on one head the ER has a head on each engine so we only need single sided units. Those points lead to a bar shaped bracket from one pillar, like the one for the control handles, being able to hold everything.

I'm looking forward to seeing the catwalks in, although I suspect 3D looking over the railings may become the only way to see through the crowding. It's getting very interesting....

Bill

  

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SteveFuryWed May-10-17 07:47 AM
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#55060, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 86


          

Thank you.
I'll revisit the telegraphs again and explore the spaces forward of the reversing gear. Probably after the catwalks. I too thought it strange placing them so far away from the main controls.

I took a couple days off this project and then began fitting the valves, regulators etc onto the fwd WTB for the steam connections.
I've made a lot of updates to post once I get the supply steam system in place. The chief Engineer now has a desk for his logs.

Bill, I just sent you a PM you may be interested to check.
Thanks all for the tips and encouragement,

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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SteveFuryWed May-10-17 08:23 AM
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#55061, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 87


          

One thing about the Telegraph control conduits:

I checked the other casements forward. Yes, the way they are now would run along the outside edge of each casements.

I searched the Britannica deck plans, particularly "A" deck for any sign of a utility space under the bridge where those cable runs may have passed down to lower decks.
A small utility closet for example.
I couldn't find any area for them to pass through A deck. I suppose they could have passed through the walls but that's a lot of cables/chains to route in a small space.

I haven't checked the plans yet to see if the walls below the bridge line up deck to deck. I guess the conduit may have passed through them if the walls line up at least to "E" deck.

It makes me wonder if the conduits might possibly pass straight up from the ER all way into the floor spaces of the boat deck?

Could the control conduits have possibly passed through the casements but not show on our plans? I'm going to have to get the Ship Magnificent book someday!

Thoughts? So much to ponder!

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestWed May-10-17 11:27 AM
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#55066, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 88


          

Good morning Steve, here's a drawing and picture for the Auld's steam reducing valves on the forward bulkhead http://www.pleasley-colliery.org.uk/html/90_psi.htm . The drawing is more accurate for proportion and shape but picture #4 helps with the control parts.

Bill

  

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Bill WestWed May-10-17 06:15 PM
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#55069, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 89


          

Looked at the telegraph cable routes Steve. You got closer than I thought.

Let's start with the picture Jason put here http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=55044&mesg_id=55046&page= . The bridge pedestals gathered under the floor from each side to the big A deck ceiling box in the photo. Then the chains ran aft in one tall casing on the midships line. It puts the chains under the cross beams but they are still high enough in the cabins to not matter. They will need to get to one side to pass the uptakes as they go aft. A route down thru the forward cabins seems ok, just small casings along the ceiling and in the corners or closets.

The Marconigraph says wire cable was used for straightaways, the chain was only for passing over pulleys. It also says there are tension turnbuckles in the bridge pedestal, that makes it clear to me that there are a pair of wires for one bridge handle down to the ER pointer and another pair for the ER handle to reply back to the bridge pointer. The steamship Berkley pictures confirm this by showing 4 rods for a single faced telegraph head. So we have 4 sets of 2 pair cables to the E/R and 2 sets to the aft docking bridge.

Using one of your pictures, if the cables ran on the ceiling of E deck they could come out here:

The little red boxes are possible holes, either on the hallway side or the uptake side (the aqua line is a projection aft of the hallway-uptake wall). If on the uptake side they will crowd the forward stairs in 1st class unless they can just squeeze behind the top step's kickboard. On higher decks the 1st class elevators would also be a concern. The red line is the chain going aft and then down to the forward LP-IP location.

The route to the docking bridge could consider using the ceiling of D deck or go down to E with the ER cables and then go back up at the stern, perhaps at the tunnel escape. It would need an offset over the steering engines to get up to docking bridge

I'd crossed possible solutions in previously coming down the E deck hallway to the side of the ER and hadn't resolved its offset as it reaches there. So I think your ER bulkhead entry is maybe better although the chain/cable casing is now rather exposed to any hoisting work.

Oh nuts, back to square one, I just saw that the travelling hoist mechanism sticks out too far for this to work!

Scott's post just came up, his Neiuw Amsterdam picture is interesting:
-I think everyone has already spotted the wheel on the vertical shaft as being the throttle
-the big wheel on the horizontal shaft would be the manual reverse that was common through this era. The white lagged pipe by the throttle would be steam to a small engine under the reverse wheel for power operation of it.
-Just beyond the reverse wheel are 2 more telegraphs mounted at an angle, maybe they are the engine order telegraphs...
-Following the chain casings on the near telegraphs leads to noticing that they join with casings from the 2 far ones and they all appear to come together in the center of the scene to rise upwards in one casing.

I like the little home-made details on the drain levers at the side foreground, simple half wing nuts for locking the levers.

I've been thinking of the writing desk being against the center column in the ER I wonder if that Neiuw Amsterdam gauge board would hang nicely over it? Two supply pressures, two exhaust pressures, one auxiliary range pressure. Add a condenser vacuum, a second auxiliary range and a dynamo pressure for the Titanic?

Bill

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Scott AndrewsWed May-10-17 03:09 PM
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#55067, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

Steve,

While I'm not dismissing the testimony about seeing the telegraphs, I wouldn't take things too literally when interpreting their appearance. The following link will take you to a post I made back in 2014 with two good photos attached. The first shows the starting platform aboard the H&W-built Nieuw Amsterdam, which was also outfitted with Ray's engine order telegraphs. The telegraphs picture in this photo are of the exact type found in most engine rooms of the period and are, with very little doubt, exactly what would have been seen aboard the Olympic-class liners:

http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=49295&mesg_id=50970&page=

The second photo shows Britannic's port engine fully assembled in the shops and ready for take-down and transport to the fitting-out quay. This picture is particularly valuable since it is one of the few that gives and unobstructed view of the throttle controls, the reversing engine and levers, AND the lever which controlled the changeover valves. This last control has no duplicate on the starboard engine.

Regards,
Scott Andrews
TRMA Trustee

  

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SteveFuryThu May-11-17 01:47 PM
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#55074, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 90


          

Thank you both for the replies and info.
I saw that H&W ER photo before. The levers with the locking thumb screw was the model for my levers. It's amazing that there's so much more to notice, especially with the help of others.

I'll definitely have to redo those telegraphs. The conduit path has really stuck in my craw. I just had to revisit the Britannic plans again.

We know the path from under the bridge forms a single conduit going Aft along the ceiling of "A" deck, about amidship. We know it must turn somewhere else it run straight through boiler casings, stair cases etc.

We also know the path leads to two areas: the reciprocating room and aft docking bridge.

Bill commented about my previous routing, that the top winches over the cylinder heads get in the way. That's right and is why I didn't run them to the ceiling.

So below is my proposal. There is no scale to the drawing. It goes aft from the bridge and down BR 5&6 casing or down its fidley way.
It desends down to the floor level of "D" deck.
Then turns Starboard (or Port) and runs under the floor just outside each casing.
There may be maintenance hatches at each casing with a roller/pulley to compensate for the curving length of the decks.
That position also allows it to miss all obstacles including stair cases.

In the case of the ER cables, they turn amidship just after the ER casing then down to the ER floor and then distributed among the telegraphs.
The telegraphs could be placed almost anywhere in the room without much obstruction.

The docking bridge cables could continue aft as they go.

I came to this very possible routing which I am confident of. Especially after seeing the other H&W ER photo, particularly how they joined the two conduits and went straight up. I previously thought those conduits were some kind of catwalk support!



I have next week off my regular job and hoping to get most of this done.
Thanks!

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestThu May-11-17 04:42 PM
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#55075, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 92


          

Here's a piece for another try Steve:

Again the little red boxes are possible holes, either on the hallway side or the uptake side. What I observe is that the chain could run diagonally down the ER bulkhead, along the center beam, then the cross beam to each side and drop down to each engine. It at least makes a well protected route. Going across to the DC heater bracket and then down is also possible. Maybe when we see the other piping in it will be more obvious as to which route will be less exposed to pipe wrenches and still have accessible pulleys.

Either side of the E deck hall/uptake could be used. The uptake side lets the grubby engineers do maintenance on the grubby side while the hall side would be easier to work from.

I'll go back to looking at the rest of your bigger picture on the routing later today.

Bill

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Bill WestFri May-12-17 01:39 AM
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#55081, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 93


          

Okay here's a guess at a cable routing:


On A deck this passes between 2 cabins at the front and then runs through a bath and a WC room followed by a fan trunk. The rise at the docking bridge might be one casing with additional turns at the top.

At work tough problems often invited us to look for ingenious and elegant solutions. But once in a while a plain solution, not even very tidy, turned out to be the answer. I think that's what we are coming to here. I can't quite get the number of turns down but this gets the job done and the wires are in accessible, damage resistant locations.

Bill

Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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Bill WestFri May-12-17 04:16 PM
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#55086, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 94


          

Sorry I rushed yesterday Steve. I reread your last idea much more closely and see that I was actually copying quite a bit of it. Picking up more of your idea, let's agree that our guess will be that the route:
- Runs aft on A deck centerline, down BR6 casing and aft on an E deck ceiling.
- In the engine room it will hang from the ceiling at the edge of the light shaft and continue aft. While in the ER it can branch to the top of the forward column by means of the cross beam on the latter's top. There it can drop to the middle cross beams and move outward to drop to each engine.
- The continuation aft will be above the turbine room in an E deck hallway.

For sides on E deck I would favour the port because the starboard would be running through all those staterooms or be farther out, on the edge of the hallway. Port is also better for the docking bridge cables because the starboard E deck hallway has an uneven jog aft of the turbine room.

At the stern I would favour angling over to and rising up the stores access shaft (I had incorrectly been pointing to the tunnel escape). Rising at hatch 6 to the ceiling of deck D just makes an extra jog as a jog on the ceiling of deck C is needed anyway to get over the steering engines.

So here's my isometric updated:


Bill

Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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Bill WestWed Jul-12-17 12:18 AM
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#55335, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 83


          

Hi Steve, I was running over our past posts and a light went on. In view of our most recent thoughts being that the writing desk and telegraphs were possibly viewed by looking aftwards at the middle ER column I went and revisited greaser Scott's testimony. My thought was if because of the telegraph handles hanging down indicating their position and because their location on the middle ER column is easily viewable from the turbine room door, could Scott have been reading them from behind?

Bill

  

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SteveFurySat May-13-17 06:15 PM
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#55092, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

STEAMPUNK!



The forward bulkhead is done.
The only connection left off is the top input to the cooking surface heater. I spent more than an hour exploring pathways over to the auxiliary condenser before moving on.

I separated steam pipes by color to keep them sorted. The colors are temporary however the final appearance may have a tinge of shade.

(Red): steam
(Green): exhaust returns
(Blue): feed water



The corners are really very cluttered:


You can see above how I had to re-arrange the green return pipes differently than the plans. I just couldn't get them to fit and function otherwise.

It may be interesting how the cat walks get through the pipes by the filters. Looks like they may be climbing over/through pipes.
Also, The Engineers Store room doors will be moved out of the corner until they clear the obstructions.

The cooking surface heater air pump needs to be made and the rest of the pumps piped in. The reciprocating engines still fit in the room with all the pipes. It's getting very tight in there.

Thanks for looking,

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestSun May-14-17 12:40 AM
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#55094, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 96


          

1912 psychedelic!! This looks really good.

The bits are, first picture:
-I think the piece on the red pipe in the top left corner is an Auld's reducing valve and is located aft of the turn.
-the piece two pipes below is also a reducing valve and its delivery is out the aft side rather than the bottom.
-the exhaust steam to the heat & cook heater shows on Tucky's drawings http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=37959&mesg_id=37959&listing_type=search as passing between the steam separators and the bulkhead. I would assume that they bend a bit to pass aft of the various auxiliary steam pipes. At the starboard side we might have to leave them hanging for a while, especially in the filter area.

second picture:
-the starboard feed delivery down from the direct contact heater should step aft before it turns out to the feed pumps, just as the port delivery does.
-both the port and starboard deliveries start against the bulkhead as they descend from the DC heater.
-the delivery from the dynamo surface heater to the direct contact heater should be blue
-there's a small steam pipe up to the bottom of the dynamo surface heater.
-the green pipe next to the starboard steam separator should be red, the horizontal portion at the bottom too.
-the blue feed pipe below that is against the bulkhead.
-there are safety valves on two of the feed pipes near the filters.
-the direct contact heater's exhaust relief pipe (blue on port side) bends aft as it passes the port steam separator and so passes aft of all the other pipes below the separator.

third picture:
-the green valve doesn't exist. The pipe above it starts a bit aft where exhaust form the side comes over and is valved into the bottom line or up into the engine's IP-LP receiver pipes.

I hope some of these points will help with the fitting.

Bill
PS: the H&W guys would have been jealous of your design tools.

  

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SteveFuryMon May-15-17 02:08 AM
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#55098, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Wow!
2 days work on the forward bulkhead but I think it looks OK.

Thanks Bill for the suggestions. I've implemented most of them.
Most of the work today has been to follow the Ship Magnificent plans more carefully regarding which layer of pipes go where.

Lots of changes here and I was able to route the two Heating & Cooking surface heater lines back toward the auxiliary condenser.

The layers of pipes truly take up a lot of space into the room. Very narrow forward catwalks for sure. The crowding is much more obvious to view once it's built, rather than portrayed on a 2d plan.
Here's an interesting view:


I still need to pipe in the pumps and the various engine hookups. The pump hookup isn't going to be all that accurate: Each will get a simple steam input and exhaust:


Moving the large blue pipe out of the starboard corner (As Bill suggested) was an important key to getting it more accurate, as well as proper pipe layering. It also makes future catwalk access to the filters more feasible:


We can see below that I'll need to move the door further down a bit. The plans show the pipe out of the regulator to go straight, but I've added a curve or else it will block the door.
The contact heater has two (green) input exhaust pipes. Each of these pipes lead to a vertical branch. Those branches are labeled "Heating exhausts from Recip Engines & Turbine Rooms". It's unclear where they go so I just ran up, across then aft.
The dangling green exhaust with the silver coupling (Very top left) gets attached to the lower IP to LP pipe on the engines, both sides:


Whew! Time to take a break.
Thanks for looking.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestTue May-16-17 01:12 AM
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#55103, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 98


          

That first shot looks like one of those "human machine" drawings showing our veins and arteries!
More seriously it's a neat presentation.

2nd pict
-I hadn't even noticed that the feed delivery from the DC heater is different on the starboard side.

3rd pict
-the H&C heater lines to the auxiliary condenser might just run straight to starboard and join the pump exhaust line from the boiler rooms

4th pict
-that pipe jog at the door is certainly a question. It also has two jogs towards the port engine and back as it heads to the turbine room
-the high pressure pump exhaust to the IP-LP is farther aft:

This applies to both sides. On starboard there is an extra infeed inward from the hull that comes from the boiler rooms.

With your colouring the forward looking views actually look quite organized, I think I would learn the system fairly quickly. I've read of senior freighter engineers, new to a ship, pointedly going around making a complete drawing of the system. Because of having to look closely at every little detail and sort out what it is for to make the drawing, they get the system sticking very well in their mind by the time they get done.

Bill

Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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Ralph CurrellTue May-16-17 08:04 AM
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#55104, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 98


          

Hi Steve,

It's coming along nicely. One thing about those doors to the engineer's stores; they don't seem to appear on any deck plans before the 1920s. I wonder if they were not originally present on Olympic, at least when those engine room plans were drawn, hence the apparent conflict with the pipe and reducing valve.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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SteveFuryTue May-16-17 11:22 AM
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#55107, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Thanks again Bill.
I hadn't correlated the blue,red and green with blood veins but now that you mention it... Strange too that those were in effect the blood lines of the ship.

I didn't know those doors were added to the plans in the 1920's. Wow I'm learning a lot. Those doors caused me so much trouble- The Starboard door would have ended up really just a hatch about 4' high to clear the pipes above.
I'm taking them out of the room. Makes more sense.

I added the refrigeration units. They were built with this pic as a reference:


These are not exactly true-to-model, mainly because some critical parts are not in view. Even though, they will look pretty cool when the flywheels are spinning, cross heads sliding etc.
I'm not happy with some of these surface textures. Pondering if I should change the base castings to a similar beige as per the rest of the pumps. It would make the area brighter:





It's down to two more items to add before finishing the plumbing. The cooking surface heater air pump and the aft hydraulic pump.

Speaking of the hydraulic pump, I believe this sketch is out of Ship Magnificent:


It looks like a pair of dual cylinders in a single unit pumping cylinders below with a valve chest on both sides. I scoured everywhere for a model, I'll need to ad-hock one. I understand this pump will operate capstans etc and need to be very hefty.

Bill you mentioned the ER personnel often drew diagrams to familiarize themselves with the equipment. That is something I often consider. If a steam line should burst then a person would need to know exactly where the cut off valve is located.

I can imagine a sudden large leak would quickly fill the spaces with a dense drippy thick fog.

Thank you,

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestTue May-16-17 01:14 PM
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#55108, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 101


          

Always great to receive new views, thanks Steve.

Stores -those doors might indeed be hatches, a health & safety escape seeing as there is oil and paint storage along the normal way out

Refrigeration machines
-very nice to see these in place, they take up more vertical room than I thought
-animating them is a nice bonus. From the barring lever across the lower front and the notches in the flywheel I assume it rotates CCW in the photo view
-there is an air pump on the forward inboard corner, probably a cross between one air cylinder of the auxiliary condenser air pump and the crank drive half of the circulating pump on the refrigerating engine's outboard corner.
-I'd stick with black paint as authentic but make it grey for visibility. They would have been painted by the manufacturer. These systems seem to have been sold as a complete package even though the accessory pumps are no different than the many other pumps H&W was supplying anyway.
-the deck plates are looking very realistic.

Hydraulic pumps
-although hydraulic capstans were marketed they were not used here. I think these pumps are mainly for operating the reversers during engine valve maintenance when the engine control steam/exhaust systems are off.
-the steam end would be the same as any other pump of this size. The hydraulic cylinders are what would be smaller. One of the ER elevations shows them, it's in this post http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=54420&mesg_id=54521&page=3
and this reply http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=54420&mesg_id=54524&page=3
-the valves chests would have to be on the outboard side only as the pumps are against a wide plate column.

Bill

  

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Ralph CurrellTue May-16-17 02:01 PM
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#55110, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 101
Tue May-16-17 02:07 PMby Ralph Currell

          

Hi Steve,

Those engineer's store doors are a bit of a problem. If we remove them, there's the question of access to the workshop on the starboard side. Possibly there were other ladders and openings that don't appear on the plans. Another feature of those storerooms was that they may have had only a bulwark on the inboard side, up to about 3'6", with the rest of the space being 'spilled' with vertical bars. This at any rate is what was specified for the Britannic.

Re. the refrigerating machinery, here's an installation on the Belgenland, another Harland & Wolff ship. As Bill says, they do fill up the space.



I don't think this machine is identical to those on Titanic but it's similar. You can see that the overall colour is quite dark, but that big flywheel (if that's what it is) is noticeably lighter.

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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SteveFuryWed May-17-17 12:05 AM
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#55114, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Greetings.
I built a pair of hydraulic pumps. I must say these are the strangest ones I've ever seen. One difference are these pumps don't appear to be self-supporting. I've made a couple versions- One version had them bolted to the aft WTB but it didn't seem right.

Looking closer to the overhead view of the pumps, it looks like there may be a wall with a supporting post which these pumps are mounted to:



I think that is really odd because I don't see that supporting post in any of the other plans I have. I ran that post all the way up to the bottom of the room's center I-beam and put the wall up to the WTB reinforcement bulkhead:



Perhaps the post & wall really do terminate on G deck at the I-Beams:


Another option would be to build an "A" frame just above the pumps and terminate the post & wall there (At the red triangle above).

I built this pump from how I perceive it, also considering the TM.com conversations in Bill's post. There's no valve gear- I suppose they may exist inside the large main center box. In any matter, I took the liberty to bolt a couple large access panels on the side. I wonder if those strange domed do-dads on the top may provide a dampening effect similar to the hydraulic cylinders on the upper part of the Brown's reversing gear? Just a thought.

These are strange indeed:



Regards,

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestWed May-17-17 01:08 AM
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#55116, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 104


          

Hi Steve
Aft ER bulkhead:
You're got most of it. There is a plate girder placed on end to reinforce the middle of the water tight bulkhead between the ER and the turbine room. It is 6' deep in the fore-aft direction and runs from tank top to the underside of D deck. It is so big that it is oddly not obvious in the drawings, I should have mentioned it before. The fore edge of the girder has 2 angle irons to make an I beam out of it. A curved gusset supports the end of the fore-aft beam that we've already drawn in the room. You've started the other 3' wide reinforcing girder that runs side to side at the G deck level, looks like a walkway and has triangular brackets under it. The 6' girder is what the hydraulic pumps are hung on, it is why their steam pipe has to wrap around the fore side to get to the starboard side.

Hydraulic pumps:
It took a few looks but I think what we may have are four single ended hydraulic cylinders with two steam cylinders in the middle. Sort of like the way the refrigeration engine has the flywheel at one end, the steam cylinder in the middle and the CO2 cylinder at the other end. What looks like a box in front of the steam cylinders would be the engine valves operated by levers from each other's piston rod. The manual valves will simply be steam supply and exhaust globe valves. At the bottom the hydraulic side looks like it might have valves for routing to the two reversers. Does this start to make sense out the clips Karol provided?

Bill

  

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Bill WestThu May-18-17 01:36 AM
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#55125, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 105


          

Steve, here's a simplex, single ended Weir hydraulic pump. It's just for interest, it doesn't fit us because the engine valve chest is different. https://archive.org/stream/marineengineer31londuoft#page/46/mode/2up

And when you go back to the catwalks I noticed that the Marconigraph/Electrician photo of the ER telephones shows a ladder up the forward bulkhead.

Bill

  

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Bill WestThu May-18-17 01:47 AM
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#55127, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Hi Steve. This can be salted away for a while but I wanted to pass it on before it was too late.

I don't know if you intended it but the video is showing the port engine in reverse. I was running the video trying to appreciation the valve motion and I didn't quite see what I expected. So I've written out the angles for the cranks and valve eccentrics. I always have to check this out methodically a few times as it is so easy to cross a factor and then throw off all the rest of the description.

On both engines, for forward the reverser handle is pushed outboard and the top of the crankshaft rotates to outboard, ie the same direction the handle moved. This is consistent with the engines having opposite rotation. The reverser's valve rod and piston rod will have moved downward and the eccentric links will have been pushed outboard. The inboard eccentric rods will be the ones that are pushing on the valve stems.

The HP and IP cylinders are inside admission (steam supply is to the middle of the valve piston) and have crossed rods (the two eccentric rods look crossed when the crank is away from the piston). Looking at the engine drawings with the HP in forward I measured 52 degrees lag behind the crank for the eccentric whose rod is on the valve stem and 54.5 degrees lead for the other eccentric. I'll use the same as a guess for the IP.

The LP cylinders are outside admission and open rods but as a result have the eccentrics rotated 180 degrees. Continuing with my guess that makes the lag/valve stem eccentric 232 degrees behind the crank and the lead one 234.5 degrees ahead. In reverse the 54.5/234.5 degree lead eccentrics will be lagging and will be the ones pushing on the valve stems. Confused? me too!

The last bit is that in forward the lag/valve stem eccentric in each pair is the one that is away from the LP's and towards the HP or IP. They show on the drawings as being the ones whose rods are vertically straight, no offset. I think the object is to clear the bearings and couplings on the crankshaft without adding length.

Stick a protractor on the end of the port crankshaft and set it so that a stationary pointer at the top touches zero degrees when the HP is on TDC. Use a protractor scale that has the numbers increasing CCW around the disk so that the degree reading increases as the crank progresses through a rotation. The protractor on the starboard engine will have a CW scale.

The degree events on the two protractors will then be (in order along the crankshaft, valve term valid for forward operation):


The same events on the mirrored protractors means that the two cranks and their eccentrics are assembled with an opposite rotation of features around the shaft. I think that your having mirrored the engines will inherently accomplish this.

Bill

Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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SteveFuryFri May-19-17 04:15 PM
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#55133, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 107


          

Hi Bill.
Thanks for all the information.
You're probably right about the hydraulic pump having two hyd cylinders top and two on the bottom. Still trying to somewhat adhere to the vague sketch in the plans, I came up with this modification:



There's no hydraulic check valves, no hydraulic plumbing etc (I assume there was a reservoir somewhere) so I just left it off for now.

Once again, I found that I looked so long at the plans but still didn't see the big vertical bulkhead the hydraulic pumps mount onto. But looking again, sure enough there it is as you said. There's too many trees obscuring the forest:



I finished with most of the plumbing. There's a big exhaust steam recovery pipe which runs just port of amidship. It terminates to a valve at the WTB before splitting into a "T" and enters the turbine room. One leg of the "T" needs to run through the 6' wide plate. I cut a hole in the 6'W plate and tripled the steel thickness there:



I hope to finish plumbing tonight and move onto catwalks again.

Balancing computer resources, image resolution and render times is a pain. I think I have it dialed in pretty good. Here are a couple examples I ran yesterday.

This one is interesting to view, as it seems you are standing on/near one of the room girders in a precarious way. Both reciprocating engines are now plumbed in:



Here you are standing next to the engineer's desk.
Bill, be sure to bring your ship's log notebook and pencil. It's a long way across the Atlantic! I put your cup on the desk:



Bill you mentioned the eccentric positions.
Man you are so observant!
When I built the crankshaft, I found figures somewhere for the main crank positions but nothing about the eccentrics... so I just put them in place with no particular rotation. Thanks for the calculations.

This thread has a ton of graphics.
I think when I get the catwalks in place and begin to do a lot of 3D renders that I'll just link to the photobucket page. Also begin a new thread in the "Post your model photos here" sub forum with only a few renders.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestSat May-20-17 01:15 AM
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#55141, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 108


          

Hi Steve.

Hydraulic pump -would it be easy to move the steam valve chest in to about 40% of the present overall depth? Or make the steam cylinders a bit larger? It all seems a bit disproportionate right now. Otherwise that area is looking fine. I'm suspecting that the hydraulic piping might run under the floor so we won't have much to show. The reservoir is a cast box up the face of the reverser's hydraulic cylinder.

Exhaust steam pipe -that valve is a relief valve on top of the tee. It feeds a pipe riser that goes up the dummy stack to exhaust to the atmosphere when the ship is in drydock.

3D renders -just a detail, the port engine control steam line stops at the HP just like the starboard side. The line aft for the turbine change over engine starts at the throttle valve, runs aft near the top of the LP exhaust, drops down between the IP and the LP and continues through the bulkhead. It shows in the ER side view.

-an even tinier bit, on the port reverser the shaft for the changeover valve should link to the upper handle.

-the views are looking really sharp. I don't have access to a smartphone for viewing and the separate goggle systems for PCs are a bit pricey. But I did put your pictures in a photo editor and used a pinch command on them. That removed the perspective distortion and just left the turn of view angle from left to right. I now have a pair of impressive prints on my desk :) . My logbook is packed and my pencils are sharpened, I just need to figure out how much tea I'll need for 6 days at 3 watches each.

Observant -actually I don't know very well what the valve motions look like, I was hoping that the animation would teach me! I just knew that that valve stem should move at different times than the piston rod.

Bill

  

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SteveFurySat May-20-17 09:17 PM
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#55151, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 109
Sat May-20-17 09:23 PMby SteveFury

          

Hello.
Bill thanks for the suggestions and compliments. I'll see if I can figure out the settings in my software to create a normal panoramic (not 360). A normal panoramic can be viewed on any computer. I'm still using a fisheye lens on these regular photos to fit more into the picture.

The piping is finished and the normal color is returned. I left a very slight "tinge" of the colors though.
New telegraphs are installed. They look a lot better. Thank you all for the suggestions. As you can see the conduit joins in the middle and runs upward:

We can see it may still be possible to view the telegraphs here from the aft WTD:


A view from the forward WTD:


There's an empty "Y" column leg which is prime real-estate for the boiler room telegraph:


The cable casing runs up to the bottom of the triangle conduit at the forward post. I put a red spotlight on the casing:


Now back to the catwalks!
Thanks for looking.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestSun May-21-17 01:13 AM
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#55152, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 110


          

Wow, is that ever giving the feel. We've never had a good look at this room and now we're getting it. I can feel it, the soft machine rumbles, a bit of leaking steam, walking on steel floors. Too bad it's going to close in with the catwalks. I printed on photo paper for enjoying this time, it looks so good.

I used Microsoft word to assemble the pictures for printing. Afterwards I gave some though to the institutional green on the columns, I don't think it's very likely for the era but black unfortunately doesn't display very well. I brightened the second picture 15% and then turned saturation to zero. That gave a grey that was visible but looked too light so I'm not sure what to suggest. Along the way however I played with colour temperature and found that turning it from 6,500 to 9,000 with 25% brightness made the whites and the bare steel more realistic with a vague hint of oil and dirt. Maybe when the lighting fixtures are in this will happen automatically.

I don't know if you are going to fill up the forward column with telephones but if you do, the desk would still work swung around facing aft against the center column. That raises another possibility for the electric telegraph and stoking indicator to the boiler rooms, they could go on the column above the desk. Oh, and can you turn on the desk lamp for me, my peepers aren't what they used to be.

That's an interesting observation that the telegraph casing could split to the two sides at a lower level. The catwalks will support it and it will be more accessible than threading down the side of the engines. In the third picture, I didn't think the I beam across the very top of the forward column was that wide?

A bit of whimsy, your second shot caught the rev counter in the corner. I ran off 75rpm x 24 hours x (1 day trials +1.5 days to Southampton +4.5 days to mid ocean) and got about 750,000 revs for a count to put on the dials. We could create an urban myth by having it about to turn 777,777 Sunday night LoL.

Bill

  

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Scott AndrewsWed May-24-17 01:55 PM
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#55171, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

Steve,

Is there any particular reason you chose to model two telegraphs per engine? The Olympic-class liners were essentially handled during maneuvering as conventional twin-screw ships. While the order telegraphs on the bridge were twin double units, meaning that orders could be rung down for both engines by a single operator from either side of the bridge shelter, the receiving/reply telegraphs in the engine room were generally arrange with one unit per engine -- in other words one instrument per engine receiving orders and sending back acknowledgements for that engine only.

Also, in the original engine telegraph arrangement aboard both Olympic and Titanic, there was no telegraph at all for the center shaft. Operation of the turbine was left entirely to the discretion of the engineer standing watch, in accordance with certain priorities regarding both operational requirements of the machinery and the number of revolutions and, therefore, speed requested by those on the bridge. The turbine was cut out during maneuvering and/or at speeds below half ahead, and there appears to be an interlock on the reversing levers of the reciprocating engines which prevented reversing of the reciprocating engines without also redirecting exhaust steam from the turbine and re-routing it to the main condensers via the change-over valves.

Later in her career, possibly during the 1912-1913 refit, and electric telegraph and bridge tell-tale were fitted for the turbine, and I assume that the same arrangement was fitted aboard Britannic from the beginning. At who's request this extra telegraph was fitted is unknown to me, and other than allowing the bridge to observe that the center screw was running, or to order the center screw stopped without telephoning the starting platform, this telegraph seems to fall into the category of an extra novelty, since its presence didn't, and couldn't, change the manner in which turbine had to operated in conjunction with the two reciprocating engines.


Regards,
Scott Andrews
TRMA Trustee

  

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SteveFuryWed May-24-17 06:31 PM
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#55173, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 112


          

Hi Mr. Andrews.
Thanks for the input!
I had believed there were a total of 4 engine order telegraphs mainly from Frederick Scott's testimony:

5523. Did you notice the two telegraphs in the engine room?
- Yes; four telegraphs rang.
5524. Were there four telegraphs?
- She got four telegraphs, two emergency ones.
5525. Two emergency?
- Yes, and two for the main engine.
5526. What did you notice?
- I noticed "Stop" first.
5527. To which telegraph did that come?
- On the main engines.
5528. Let us get this clearly. I understand you are speaking now of the turbine room?
- No, there are two stand-bys; you can see just the same in the turbine room; if you are standing at the engine room door you can see the two just the same.
5529. Where did you see those?
- In the main engine room.
(skip)
5533. Now I think we follow. When you speak of the four telegraphs, are they all there?
- Yes.
5534. Or are there any in your room?
- No, there are none in the turbine room at all, Sir, all in the main engine room.
5535. Was the telegraph signal that came the emergency or the ordinary telegraph?
- That is to the main engine room. It is different. They ring the two on the main engine room, and then they ring two others just afterwards, the emergency ones.
5536. Did you hear the two?
- All four went.
5537. Did you hear the two ordinary ones ring first?
- No, they all four rang together.
(end)

Reading the testimony again, it seems there were 4 telegraphs total in the main ER with "two main ones located on the main engines" and the other two emergency ones somewhere else in the same room.

However in my research on the topic regarding other ships of the period, I discovered some other vessels were equipped with a clapper bell which rang during emergencies. Perhaps Frederick referred to the emergency telegraph as a clapper bell? I don't recall reading about one but I am probably mistaken.


Everyone here at TM.com know vastly more than I do about the great ship and appreciate any input. Based on your input I may remove one...Any suggestions? I think I have a good start.

In the mean time, I'm assembling the catwalks. They're coming along nicely.
Thanks again,

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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William W. YoungWed May-24-17 09:03 PM
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#55174, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 113


          

O find what you are doing facinating . Thank You

William W. Young

  

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Scott AndrewsSun May-28-17 09:33 PM
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#55184, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 113


  

          

Steve,

Yes, there was an emergency telegraph system, however, I've never really given much consideration as to what it looked like at the starting platform end. You're interpretation could very well be close to the mark. As you are no doubt aware, the telegraph instruments were quite literally physically hooked together via a system of chains and wire rope cables running through sheaves on bearings. There was always the possibility of something mucking up the works, especially given the extremely long runs involved in a ship this size. Ironically enough, the danger of malfunction in this otherwise simple and reliable system was highest in an emergency situation, when a frantic bridge officer, drowning in his own adrenaline, might jerk the levers back and forth with such speed and force as to cause the cables to jump their guides and jamb up. Hence the "emergency telegraph." (Of course, the Olympic-class and other ships of their era that were up-to-date in their equipment had a third back-up in the form of a dedicated bridge-to-starting platform telephone line.)

Regards,
Scott Andrews
TRMA Trustee

  

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Bill WestMon May-29-17 12:48 AM
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#55186, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 116


          

I got a bridge tour on a cruise ship a few years ago. Despite having direct throttle control of the engines they still had an electric style engine telegraph on their console, I think it might still be a requirement. Regardless there was a prominent sign under the telegraph that said "DO NOT USE THIS". So much for reliable backups...

Bill

  

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SteveHallSat May-27-17 08:31 AM
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#55180, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Interesting thread.

Steve
-------------------

  

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SteveFuryTue May-30-17 04:16 AM
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#55190, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Thanks Mr. Andrews.
Yes, the telegraphs are a mystery and probably always will be.

Thanks all for the compliments.
The modeling phase of my project is near an end. I hope to post some pics tonight.
-Steve

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Ralph CurrellThu Jun-01-17 08:19 AM
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#55194, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I wish to draw attention to Steve's latest post at http://titanic-model.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=100&topic_id=54681&mesg_id=55192&page=
This post is appearing near the top of the thread layout when viewed in 'threaded mode', and it may be difficult to for visitors to locate.

Steve, that is really great work. One could argue about some of the minor details, but in general you've captured the appearance well.

Regarding the colours, I found a few notes from Britannic's specifications that you might find helpful.

Engine room: White (non poisonous) Note(7)
" " (Ship's side): " " "
" " (Casing): White. Enamel above U Deck only.

Gratings in Machinery Space: Black
Engines: Light Mast, Grey, White Note(9)
Refrig. Mchy.: White (non-poisonous) Note(10)

Notes:
(7) The third coat to be applied, if possible, after the clips &c. are fitted. One coat chocolate colour to be applied on bulkhead at Starting platform to form dado. Bulkhead pumps, auxiliary seats &c. underneath floor plates to receive two coats Sider-Osthen.
(9) To apply to the main engines, steering and warping engines and auxiliary machinery. the columns to be light mast after filling up with composition; the cylinder lagging steel grey and the under side of the cylinders in the crank pits white (non-poisonous).
(10) The brine pipes to be painted various colours as arranged with Messrs Hall's representatives.

I notice the colour specified for the refrigeration machines contradicts what I suggested in an earlier post.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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SteveFuryThu Jun-01-17 08:47 AM
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#55195, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 120


          

Thanks Ralph that's huge.
Yup there's a lot of things in my model which isn't exactly right. But as you say, I think it is reasonably accurate and captures the general appearance of the room. Thanks for the input.

I'll see what I can do with the color suggestions.
-Steve

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestFri Jun-02-17 12:13 PM
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#55198, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 121


          

You've done us a great service Steve, thank you very much for all the hard work to create this.

As Ralph mentions there are several little points that we could debate but I am now understanding more about the time this takes to create and to render so we will just sit back and appreciate it as a great move forward in our knowledge of the engine room.

I've lightened the shots for printing now but as Windows 3D goggles & software look expensive, I'm again thinking about getting a smartphone. Walking around the room looks very appealing...

Wow, Bill

  

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SteveFuryMon Jun-05-17 06:52 PM
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#55209, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 120


          

I did a full engine motion test which turned out pretty good.

All the fancy texturing is turned off for faster rendering so it looks very flat and bland. I am only testing the running motion and sound-to-motion sync.

The sound was extracted from a YouTube triple expansion engine room video and modified. This engine is turning at 34 RPM, about half speed. I also plan to rig a full speed animation.
I set each pair of eccentric cams to 90 degree with its associated main crank, +7 degree advancement.
To note, the eccentrics appear to be set opposite of its running direction. It's something I need to keep in mind.

Crank up the sound and enjoy!
https://youtu.be/WTSGdKazHHQ

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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SteveFurySun Jun-11-17 10:31 PM
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#55226, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

This is just a heads-up for anyone following this thread.

The engine room along with all the pumps are getting a MAJOR rework due to new documentation, specifically the TTSM references.

Thanks,

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Bill WestFri Jun-23-17 12:32 PM
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#55262, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Hi Steve, some details for the engine room framing.
On each side there are two horizontal girders reinforcing the frames. These are called keelsons. They are about 2' wide and are placed over the web frames, about 1.5' and 8' above the floor. This can be seen in the cross section drawings. There is a curved gusset at each end that can be seen in the plan view. The two drawings and TTSM pg130-131 will give you better measures than my approximate figures. Like the big girder in the aft bulkhead these are big enough to be missed in looking at the drawings, I hope they won't interfere with any piping you've already placed.

I also noticed that TTSM pg131 shows two more vertical 3' girders on the aft ER bulkhead, one to each side. Then the side view at the left shows that there is a little passageway through the big 6' girder at the center of the bulkhead. Access from the ER entrance is easier than we thought.

Bill

  

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SteveFurySun Jun-25-17 06:34 PM
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#55268, "RE: Titanic 3D model project"
In response to Reply # 125


          

Thanks for those tips Bill!
Yup. I have a lot to do in the ER. I was also wondering about those two beams on the star/port sides.
I was planning on completely redoing the side framing. The side pipes shouldn't be too much of a problem cuz I haven't had the time to redo them yet

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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