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Subject: "A possible discovery." Previous topic | Next topic
MatteK99Tue Jul-04-17 12:24 PM
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#55299, "A possible discovery."
Tue Jul-04-17 12:58 PMby MatteK99

          

Hey guys. I think I've come across something exciting. The other day I was looking at the well-known picture of Francis Browne's stateroom and I noticed something very odd in the mirror. Here's a little article explaining what I think is a new discovery.

Pdf link: https://puu.sh/wBz3X/d4d26a0b10.pdf

P.S. I know the forum is mainly about the exterior but since it's the most active one there is, I decided to post this anyway. I hope you don't mind

Regards,
~MK

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: A possible discovery., Ralph Currell, Jul 04th 2017, #1
RE: A possible discovery., Ralph Currell, Jul 07th 2017, #2
RE: A possible discovery., MatteK99, Jul 08th 2017, #3
      RE: A possible discovery., Ralph Currell, Jul 09th 2017, #4
           RE: A possible discovery., MatteK99, Jul 09th 2017, #5
                RE: A possible discovery., MatteK99, Jul 10th 2017, #6
                RE: A possible discovery., Ralph Currell, Jul 10th 2017, #7
                     RE: A possible discovery., MatteK99, Jul 18th 2017, #8
                          RE: A possible discovery., MatteK99, Jul 19th 2017, #9
                               RE: A possible discovery., Ralph Currell, Jul 20th 2017, #10
                                    RE: A possible discovery., MatteK99, Jul 20th 2017, #11
                                         RE: A possible discovery., Ralph Currell, Jul 30th 2017, #12
                                              RE: A possible discovery., MatteK99, Aug 23rd 2017, #13

Ralph CurrellTue Jul-04-17 03:43 PM
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#55301, "RE: A possible discovery."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the article. Discussion of the ship's interiors is certainly on-topic in this forum.

I'm not really familiar with the passenger accommodation, so I'd have to study this further to say whether I agree with your conclusions.

For what it's worth, the arrangement of these suites shown in the Beveridge plans was probably based on the 'Limitation of Liability' plans filed by the White Star Line. These can be seen online at https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2012/spring/titanic.html (about halfway down the page).

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Ralph CurrellFri Jul-07-17 09:14 AM
Member since Mar 31st 2007
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#55310, "RE: A possible discovery."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Hi Matt,

I spent some time going over your article. It's a nice bit of detective work, and your description is quite clear. Nevertheless, I think the photo can be explained using the currently accepted arrangement of the suite.

To understand what was going on, I drew a diagram as close to scale as I could manage given the information available. The red lines are sight lines from the camera to the mirrored cabin.



The vertical surface you identified as a door seems to line up with the foyer wall in my diagram. The edge of the window shows up about where we'd expect it as well. A door from the 1st class entrance to the foyer, such as you hypothesize, would extend further into the corridor than what we see in the photo, almost coinciding with the edge of the window. Even allowing for inaccuracies in my drawing, it's hard to see how such a door could be present.

I don't have a good explanation for the horizontal line you identified as the top of the door; it actually seems to extend beyond the door. It's too low to be a beam from the deck above. It may be the rebate of the door frame, but I wonder if it's simply a scratch on the photo.

I used estimated dimensions in several places, so this should not be considered the final word on the layout. If anyone spots any errors in my drawing I'd be glad to hear of it.

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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MatteK99Sat Jul-08-17 09:59 AM
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#55315, "RE: A possible discovery."
In response to Reply # 2
Sat Jul-08-17 02:44 PMby MatteK99

          

Hey Ralph.

Thanks for taking the time to look at the article. I appreciate your theory but some of the things you're saying are not really adding up to me.

First of all I'm not buying the fact that the object in question is in the 'correct' angle according to our current understanding.
When you compare the angle of the stateroom door frame to the angle of the object, you notice that the two are almost parallel
It seems that the door would have been about 45 degrees open when the photo was taken.

The angle of the object can be determined from the top of the door.
It's not just the white line that seems to extend beyond of the door, but you can actually see the shadow of the wood molding of the door panel. The molding clearly does almost a 90 degree turn at the top, however if this was just a regular wall panel in the vestibule the angle should be closer to 135 degrees, I think. An explanation for the white line being too long could be the double exposure in the picture or simply the quality I personally have available for demonstrations.

Also I'd like to mention the little knob on the the object that apparently just happpens to be the right size, shape and on the correct hight to be the the attachment for the stopping hook of the door..

Regards,
~MK

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Ralph CurrellSun Jul-09-17 07:33 AM
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#55319, "RE: A possible discovery."
In response to Reply # 3


          

Hi Matt,

I wish I was proficient in 3D illustration, because this seems like a good candidate for it.

My main objection to the object being a door is the distance it extends into the foyer. A door opened 90 degrees (or even 45 degrees) would extend much further into the picture, almost fully blocking the view through the bedroom door. That's shown on the diagram in my previous message.

Do we know what the dimensions of the stateroom doors were? I've been using 26 inches width for my estimates.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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MatteK99Sun Jul-09-17 11:42 PM
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#55323, "RE: A possible discovery."
In response to Reply # 4
Mon Jul-10-17 12:04 AMby MatteK99

          

Hey Ralph.

You do have a point there. A fully opened door should take up more space. The thing that makes me still think it's door, is the undeniable door panel seen in the pic. The top molding and and what I assume is the stop hook knob are clearly visible, I think. It's also odd that the corner where the opening should be is in complete darkness. The dome should let a lot light in specially during the daytime, unless the opening didn't exist

I made a similar plan as yours that seems to indicate that a smaller angle on the door could be in fact possible. Does it also seem that in order for the panel to be a normal wall panel it should be a bit longer?

I think 26" for the doors should be fine.









Regards,
~MK

Attachment #1, (gif file)
Attachment #2, (gif file)

  

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MatteK99Mon Jul-10-17 12:07 AM
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#55325, "RE: A possible discovery."
In response to Reply # 5
Mon Jul-10-17 12:08 AMby MatteK99

          

~

  

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Ralph CurrellMon Jul-10-17 03:49 PM
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#55331, "RE: A possible discovery."
In response to Reply # 5


          

Hi Matt,

If the foyer door is almost closed, as you show it in your last drawing, would we not expect the top of the door to be at an angle, rather than parallel to the top of the bedroom door frame? I'm not sure what that object is at the end of the light surface. It looks rather large to be an eye or cleat for a door hook, but nothing else really comes to mind.

I'm going to take another look at this. That marked-up Olympic photo you posted raises a couple of questions in my mind.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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MatteK99Tue Jul-18-17 08:01 PM
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#55358, "RE: A possible discovery."
In response to Reply # 7
Tue Jul-18-17 08:21 PMby MatteK99

          

Hey Ralph.

Here's another point supporting my door theory. It appears that the panel in the picture cannot be a regular wall panel since the molding doesn't match the design. However the molding seems to work with the door theory quite well.

Evidence starts to pile up. aye? ;D

The cleat on the door is probably a bit too big to be for the stop hook. Hard to tell tho. This lead to me thinking that would it be possible for the door to be a dutch door for a some weird reason?

Regards,
~MK






Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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MatteK99Wed Jul-19-17 09:59 AM
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#55360, "RE: A possible discovery."
In response to Reply # 8


          

I think I cracked it. It seems that the object is one of the small doors covering a fuse box. The size of the panel and the height of the handle seems to match with the design.

I don't know much about the electricity circuits aboard tho, so I cannot say whether or a not this placement for a fuse box would actually make sense or would the box even fit inside the wall.

This would confirm that the entrance was at the forward end of the vestibule but I still wouldn't rule out the possibility of a door or a some sort of cover existing instead of a simple opening since there's still some evidence supporting it, such as the dark corner, Browne's drawing and the fact that this was a private bathroom so the opening doesn't really make sense. Are these enough? I'm not sure.

Regards,
~MK





Attachment #1, (jpg file)
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Ralph CurrellThu Jul-20-17 08:24 AM
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#55363, "RE: A possible discovery."
In response to Reply # 9


          

Hi Matt,

Sorry for not replying sooner. I've been busy with a few other things and haven't had time to give this topic the attention it deserves.

The idea of an electrical panel is interesting. I agree that the handle looks like a good match, but I don't know enough about the electrical system to say if a panel at that location is likely. If you haven't seen it already, there's an example of an electrical panel in TTSM volume 1, page 390.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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MatteK99Thu Jul-20-17 04:04 PM
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#55364, "RE: A possible discovery."
In response to Reply # 10


          

Hi Ralph.

After looking into the fuse box thing a bit more I really started to doubt it. I don't know the exact dimensions of the box but considering the thickness of the wall, which is a bit too thick in the model by the way, I really doubt it would fit inside. Also the A deck level of the aft staircase apparently already has two fuse boxes so I don't think they would have needed a third one or even potentially 4 if the design would have been the same on the port side.

However I think it's safe to say now that there's something in the picture that is not previously discovered when you consider my point about the design of the panel. Another wild idea I had was that could've Titanic had the same layout as Britannic. I know it seems very unlikely but it works with what is seen in Browne's photo quite well. This would also explain the dark corner, I think.

The most mystic thing seems to be the object attached to the door. It seems to be too big to be a stop hook cleat but then again I cannot think of anything else it could've been. Maybe the upper knob of a dutch door but having that kind of door there doesn't make any sense for me. Maybe it could have been a foreign object?









Regards,
~MK

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)
Attachment #3, (jpg file)

  

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Ralph CurrellSun Jul-30-17 04:01 PM
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#55388, "RE: A possible discovery."
In response to Reply # 11


          

Hi Matt,

I wonder if that object could be an electrical switch. Here's an example of a heater switch on Olympic. A switch for a hall light might make sense in that location.



Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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MatteK99Wed Aug-23-17 01:34 PM
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#55467, "RE: A possible discovery."
In response to Reply # 12


          

Hi Ralph.

On Titanic the switches controlling the lights would have been small boxes, not round like the heater switch you referenced. In fact you can see a light switch on the right side of the door in the Browne pic. Also if the space was as previously though the small corridor would have been considered a part of the public areas which would mean that the lights would have been controlled from a fuse box.

Regardless of what the object is, considering the given evidence, it can be said that the door did exist in my opinion. The most damning evidence seems to be the points i made about the panel and the dark corner. the white stripe that I identified as the top of the door in the original article seems to not be the actual top though. I think it might be a part of the double exposure of the picture or possible a scratch on the negative. Having a door there doesn't seems that outlandish either when you look at the history of the Olympic Class; the door was featured in Britannic's 1915 plan and was later added on Olympic. The modification Browne made to his deck plan just seems to top of a long list of evidence. Maybe even too long to be a coincidence? That's what I think.


Sorry for not answering sooner I was a bit busy with other stuff.

Greetings,
~MK



  

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