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Subject: "Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)" Previous topic | Next topic
Ralph CurrellTue Oct-17-17 12:01 PM
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#55539, "Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"


          

Hi all,

This is partly a response to Steve Fury's recent 3D engine room renderings, but I'm posting it as a new topic so as not to derail his thread. The engine room winches at the starting platform level have never been discussed in any detail, to my knowledge. Here is what I know about them:

> A photo printed on page 401 of 'Titanic, the Ship Magnificent' volume 1 (originally from the journal 'The Electrician'). It shows a cluster of telephones on one of the central support columns and, most interestingly, a winch immediately behind the column. From the position of the watertight door in the background this seems to be the aft-most column in Olympic's reciprocating engine room.

> The Olympic Drawing Office book, often referred to as the 'Andrews Notebook', lists two 2-ton electric winches in the reciprocating engine room.

> Two 4-horsepower electric winches are listed in Olympic's 1935 auction catalogue.

> The 'Shipbuilder' special number mentions electric winches in the engine room in connection with the lifting gear, supplied by Chambers, Scott & Co.

Beyond the single photo and the rather sparse written sources there's little else to go on. They do not appear on any of the detailed plans printed in 'The Shipbuilder', 'Engineering' and other journals. I've attached a drawing here showing possible locations for them. The aft winch position can be roughly estimated from the 'Electrician' photo, but the forward one is only a guess. I've copied the basic size and shape from the boat winches, though this will probably turn out to be incorrect.



Does anyone else have further information on these winches, or similar winches on other ships? As far as I'm aware there's nothing visible on the Titanic wreck.

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Bill West, Oct 17th 2017, #1
RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Ralph Currell, Oct 17th 2017, #2
      RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), SteveFury, Oct 18th 2017, #3
           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Ralph Currell, Oct 18th 2017, #4
                RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Oct 20th 2017, #5
                     RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Ralph Currell, Oct 20th 2017, #6
                          RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Scott Andrews, Oct 20th 2017, #8
                               RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Ralph Currell, Oct 20th 2017, #9
                                    RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Bill West, Oct 20th 2017, #10
                                         RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), SteveFury, Oct 21st 2017, #11
                                              RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Ralph Currell, Oct 22nd 2017, #12
                                                   RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), leon, Oct 25th 2017, #13
                                                        RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Scott Andrews, Oct 25th 2017, #14
                                                             RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), leon, Oct 25th 2017, #15
                                                                  RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Ralph Currell, Oct 25th 2017, #17
                                                                       RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Bill West, Oct 26th 2017, #18
                                                                       RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Oct 26th 2017, #19
                                                                            RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Ralph Currell, Oct 26th 2017, #22
                                                                                 RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Bill West, Oct 26th 2017, #25
                                                                       RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), leon, Oct 26th 2017, #20
                                                                            RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), leon, Oct 26th 2017, #21
                                                                                 RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Ralph Currell, Oct 26th 2017, #23
                                                                                      RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), leon, Oct 26th 2017, #24
                                                                                           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Bill West, Oct 26th 2017, #26
                                                                                           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), leon, Oct 27th 2017, #27
                                                                                           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Ralph Currell, Oct 27th 2017, #28
                                                                                           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Oct 27th 2017, #29
                                                                                           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Scott Andrews, Oct 31st 2017, #43
RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Scott Andrews, Oct 20th 2017, #7
RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), leon, Oct 25th 2017, #16
      RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Cyril.Codus, Oct 27th 2017, #30
           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Oct 27th 2017, #31
                RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Ralph Currell, Oct 27th 2017, #32
                     RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Oct 28th 2017, #33
                     RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Cyril.Codus, Oct 28th 2017, #34
                          RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Oct 28th 2017, #35
                               RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Cyril.Codus, Oct 28th 2017, #36
                                    RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Oct 29th 2017, #37
                                         RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Ralph Currell, Oct 29th 2017, #38
                                              RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Oct 29th 2017, #39
                                                   RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Oct 29th 2017, #40
                                                        RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Oct 29th 2017, #41
                                                             RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Cyril.Codus, Oct 29th 2017, #42
                                                                  RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Bill West, Oct 31st 2017, #44
                                                                       RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Nov 01st 2017, #45
                                                                            RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Nov 01st 2017, #46
                                                                                 RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Ralph Currell, Nov 01st 2017, #47
                                                                                      RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Bill West, Nov 01st 2017, #48
                                                                                           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Nov 01st 2017, #49
                                                                                           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Bill West, Nov 01st 2017, #50
                                                                                           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Nov 01st 2017, #51
                                                                                           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Nov 06th 2017, #52
                                                                                           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Bill West, Nov 07th 2017, #53
                                                                                           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), Ralph Currell, Nov 07th 2017, #54
                                                                                           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Nov 07th 2017, #55
                                                                                           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), SteveFury, Nov 12th 2017, #56
                                                                                           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), bpread, Nov 12th 2017, #57
                                                                                           RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level), SteveFury, Nov 24th 2017, #58

Bill WestTue Oct-17-17 03:54 PM
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#55541, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Hi Ralph. When I looked at Steve's ER floor views the openness bothered me, you've answered what's missing. Your answer looks good, you've covered more than I've seen. I bet the winches earned their keep during the erection stage.

Bill

  

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Ralph CurrellTue Oct-17-17 05:56 PM
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#55542, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Hi Bill,

Thanks. I assume the winches would have been used for repair and inspection as well as erecting the engines. I was interested to note that Titanic's spare eccentric strap (recovered from the wreck) is stated as weighing 2 tons, which nicely matches the winch capacity given in the Andrews Notebook.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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SteveFuryWed Oct-18-17 11:20 AM
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#55545, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 2


          

Thank you very much for the information. I'm in the process of building those winches.

It answered a nagging question I've always had, because the only other winches I'm aware of are above the cylinder heads. Not so practical for lower end maintenance.

The winches will surely fill up the ER floor. I assume there must have been a lot of heavy chains, rope, block & tackle stored in a locker somewhere.

Thanks again!

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Ralph CurrellWed Oct-18-17 12:57 PM
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#55546, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 3


          

Hi Steve,

It will be interesting to see how they look in your renderings. The only clue to their appearance is the partial view in that TTSM photo. If the auction catalogue is correct about their motor being only 4 horsepower, the motor housing would be smaller than those seen on the boat winches. I have no idea if the controller would be mounted on top (like the boat winches) or floor mounted.

I'm sure you're right about the lifting tackle. Presumably this would be kept in the engineers stores when not in use.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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bpreadFri Oct-20-17 09:11 AM
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#55547, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 4
Fri Oct-20-17 10:47 AMby bpread

          

The housing of the winch looks a lot like this Chambers, Scott & Co. winch. In the photo in TTSM since you can't see the warping drum and only the shaft, I wonder if the shaft is extended so that the drums are further away from the winch. This would require a support and bearing out near the warping drum.
Regards,
Bob Read




https://flic.kr/p/YAepYM>https://flic.kr/p/YAepYM>winch chambers scott by https://www.flickr.com/photos/35267392@N06/>bpread, on Flickr

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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Ralph CurrellFri Oct-20-17 11:05 AM
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#55548, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 5
Fri Oct-20-17 11:23 AMby Ralph Currell

          

Hi Bob,

Thanks, that is a possible candidate. I'm not sure if the engine room winches would have that central barrel, but the control arrangement might be similar.

<Edited to add:> Here's another Chambers, Scott winch that might be a closer match, though unfortunately we can't see anything of the motor or control.




For the benefit of readers who don't have a copy of TTSM handy, here's the 'Electrician' photo of Olympic's engine room for comparison (the winch at the lower right corner, partly hidden by an engine room column).



Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)

  

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Scott AndrewsFri Oct-20-17 11:18 AM
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#55550, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

Odd -- there is no denying that the object on the opposite side of the column looks like a winch; in fact, to my eye, I'd go so far as to say that it looks like it cannot be anything else!

Regards,
Scott Andrews
TRMA Trustee

  

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Ralph CurrellFri Oct-20-17 11:41 AM
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#55551, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 8


          

Hi Scott,

It was a surprise to me too when I first noticed this. My first thought was that it might a temporary thing removed after the engines were erected, but those entries in the Andrews Notebook and the auction catalogue suggest otherwise.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Bill WestFri Oct-20-17 08:03 PM
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#55552, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 9


          

Excellent digging Gents. Let's tally what's seen in the pictures.

Cargo winch:
-2 warp drums, 3rd winch drum in the center
-shaft pedestals to each side
-double reduction spur gear drive, the intermediate shaft can be seen in the side of the frame
-the bar across the lower front would be the lowering brake
-spur gears means the motor is parallel to drum shaft
-cast frame and plate gear casing
-complete casing of controller, motor and gears as is appropriate for a deck installation

Baggage winch:
-2 warp drums
-shaft pedestals to each side
-worm gear drive, high reduction in one step
-a worm drive is often self braking
-motor at right angles to drum shaft
-cast gear casing, typical with worm gears

ER work winch
-2 warp drums
-2 shaft pedestals to each side
-plate gear casing

Inferences for ER winch:
-the plate casing suggests a spur gear drive to me and thus a parallel motor. But this is a key question in deciding what to draw.
-little space to the room column so it is likely that the motor is aft of the drum shaft
-a lowering brake would be needed, the narrower style used on the boat winches might be appropriate
-handling the brake and seeing the work in progress may also mean placing the controller aft in our picture's view.

To get the 3D done we are basically going to have to adopt an interim guess for the motor, brake and controller locations. Any other votes?

Bill

  

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SteveFurySat Oct-21-17 12:48 AM
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#55553, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 10


          

I built a winch based on this photo- unfortunately I believe it is a boat winch:



I think the Scott photo posted earlier is a closes match based on the drum supporting pillar and top bolted bearing cap.

I modified the boat winch by spreading out the pillars/drums. I think they look good enough for my project.

Here's a couple test renders. The winches will sit a little lower on the stool. They are sitting on the floor plates in these tests:





I tried to get a camera angle similar to the Olympic photo- the camera is right under the ladder:



-Steve

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Ralph CurrellSun Oct-22-17 09:56 AM
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#55558, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 11


          

Hi Steve,

I don't know how similar the ER winch would be to a boat winch; I suspect it would be somewhat smaller, but we really don't have much to go on. Thanks for recreating the 'Electrician' photo. That's one of the great benefits of a 3D model, being able to do stuff like that.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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leonWed Oct-25-17 11:52 AM
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#55573, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 12
Wed Oct-25-17 11:58 AMby leon

  

          

Hello everyone,

I have the pleasure of posting with great permission from Simon Mills this part of the General Arrangement Plan 433 Britannic of the Britannic Engine Room.

Here is the picture.

I hope all the enigma and luck of today's clear.
Sorry for all my spelling mistakes.

The update for my blog and my web page:



KIND REGARDS.

The best forum TRMA
LIONEL CODUS.

  

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Scott AndrewsWed Oct-25-17 12:14 PM
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#55574, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 13
Wed Oct-25-17 12:17 PMby Scott Andrews

  

          

By any chance, did Simon tell you where this was originally published, or where he sourced it from? You will note that there are other differences to be found in this GA of the Reciprocating Engine Room in the layout and types of auxiliary equipment show. For instance, look at the feedwater filters and the location of the hotwell tanks and associated pumps.

Regards,
Scott Andrews
TRMA Trustee

  

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leonWed Oct-25-17 01:17 PM
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#55576, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

Reply of the Simon Mills:


No. The images that I have were provided by Harland & Wolff before the Ulster Folk & Transport Museum assumed responsibility for the technical drawings. I had a long correspondence with them a few weeks ago because of the book and we agreed that any images I use which they have supplied must be credited to UFTM/NMNI, but any images provided to me by Harland & Wolff before the museum took over responsibility for the curation of the collection were covered under a different agreement. Either way I have to respct bth the museum's rights and also those of Harland & Wolff, which is why whenever divers ask me for copies of the original GA plans I have to politely decline. As to the Ulster Museum having a cpy of the Britannic plans, they probably do but so far their collection has not been catalogued, so they are probably buried in a pile of literally thousands of other technical drawings...

Sorry for all my spelling mistakes.

The update for my blog and my web page:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/794574807249192/

http://adesdubd.skyrock.com/
KIND REGARDS.

The best forum TRMA
LIONEL CODUS.

  

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Ralph CurrellWed Oct-25-17 10:59 PM
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#55580, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 15


          

Lionel,

Thank you for posting that plan! And Simon, if you're reading this, thanks so much for sharing it.

The winches are of course greatly simplified on the plan, but the squarish shape of the base is somewhat similar to the cargo winch Bob posted earlier.

Scott, the re-arrangement of the engine room machinery is interesting. On Olympic and Titanic the feed filters were between the hotwell pumps and the surface heater. In the case of Britannic the feed filters were of a different type (gravitation as opposed to pressure), and placed between the feed tank and the control tank/hotwell pumps.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Bill WestThu Oct-26-17 12:44 AM
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#55581, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 17


          

I agree with you Ralph about the similarity to the cargo winch and I too would like to thank Lionel and Simon for helping out.

Bill

  

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bpreadThu Oct-26-17 04:07 AM
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#55582, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 18


          

I think we can see enough of the winch in the photo Ralph posted to tell that it isn't like the one I posted. I think Steve has it about right. If you look at these kinds of G/A drawings, they draw the other electric winches pretty much the same way. I think the most important thing to be derived from the plan is the location of the winches. G/A drawings aren't really meant to show details like the winch with technical accuracy.
Regards
Bob Read

  

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Ralph CurrellThu Oct-26-17 10:27 AM
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#55588, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 19


          

Here's a revised version of the drawing in my original post, with the winch size and location modified to reflect Simon's plan. I've made no attempt to draw the motor or controller details.



It occurs to me that Titanic's forward winch might be lying in the debris field somewhere. I don't suppose anyone recalls seeing anything similar in the wreck imagery?

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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Bill WestThu Oct-26-17 12:29 PM
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#55591, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 22


          

I agree that the floor plan is only showing an outline, not details, but the outline is the one part that might be fairly accurate. The significance to consider here is that a worm drive such as in the boat winches is symmetrical while a spur gear drive such as in the cargo winch is not. A counterpoint is that the gear case in the Electrician photo appears to be at the center of the drum shaft. Is this just a matter of the controller box being at one side of the motor instead of being on top? While that fits it however doesn't look as logical as the top mount in the photos.

Bill

  

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leonThu Oct-26-17 10:15 AM
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#55586, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          


  

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leonThu Oct-26-17 10:20 AM
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#55587, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

Hello everybody,

Thank you for your response to all

I'll pass the message to Simon Mills for your thanks

I found on the book TTSM Volume Number 1 Page 92 a photograph of the time with all the winches under construction

I wanted to know if one of the big winches might be in the engine room as you said on this talk

Here is the picture in question

Thank you all for sharing your research and making advanced knowledge, to know how was the Titanic and his sisters

Best regards

Sorry for all my spelling mistakes.

The update for my blog and my web page:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/794574807249192/

http://adesdubd.skyrock.com/
KIND REGARDS.

The best forum TRMA
LIONEL CODUS.

  

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Ralph CurrellThu Oct-26-17 11:44 AM
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#55589, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 21
Thu Oct-26-17 11:56 AMby Ralph Currell

          

Hi Lionel,

It is thought that the engine room winches were made by a different manufacturer (the 'Shipbuilder' mentions Chambers, Scott & Co., though it's possible this refers to the overhead hoists).

The large winches in your image are probably the 3-ton deck cargo winches, and the smaller ones the 15-cwt boat winches. The engine room winches *may* be similar in appearance, but we really have little evidence.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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leonThu Oct-26-17 12:16 PM
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#55590, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Hi everyone,

I have a question for Bill West about the James Cameron expedition of the Titanic wreck.

Is James Cameron analyzing between the two engines with ROV Jake and Elwood?

It would be nice to know if there were Ghosts of the Abyss 2001 and 2002 expeditions going between the machines?

I chatted with my brother, and he heard in a documentary that in the debris fields he found several winches.

Bill, would you have a picture of these winches from the debris field?

Thank you all and Ralph Currell for all of this research to Robert Read and others I have forgotten.

Sorry for all my spelling mistakes.

The update for my blog and my web page:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/794574807249192/

http://adesdubd.skyrock.com/
KIND REGARDS.

The best forum TRMA
LIONEL CODUS.

  

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Bill WestThu Oct-26-17 12:34 PM
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#55592, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 24


          

Sorry Lionel, I do not have private access to the expeditions and have done very little study of their pictures.

Bill

  

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leonFri Oct-27-17 06:57 AM
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#55593, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

Hello everybody,

I wrote to Ken Marschall, and Ken replied, this


Lionel,

I see that there are questions about these winches in the TRMA thread to which you linked me. Yes, they were in Olympic/Titanic. See the attached enhanced composites from imagery obtained on Sept. 23, 2001.

The one at the forward end of the room is of course lost in the debris somewhere. But the aft one is plain to see if one studies the video repeatedly.

None of the three supporting pillars running through the center of the room were standing erect or even identified during the exploration. But although the aft-most pillar is gone, the aft winch is there, and the ROV Jake passed right over it en route to examine whether the watertight door is open or closed. We weren't expecting a winch, so Cameron drove the bot over it without stopping. Heading back out later he piloted the bot farther to port, and all we see is the extreme end of the port winch drum.

The fallen rusticles from above make for debris that is about waist deep in the aft part of the room as there is much steel overhead to rust. Not so in the forward part where there is open water overhead and the deck between the engines is remarkably clean.

In all images we are facing aft. In the third one we are moving right above the winch.

The light seen in the distance is coming from Mir 2 which was resting atop the decking above.

Feel free to post the pics and my comments to TRMA along with my good wishes to all.

Ken

Sorry for all my spelling mistakes.

The update for my blog and my web page:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/794574807249192/

http://adesdubd.skyrock.com/
KIND REGARDS.

The best forum TRMA
LIONEL CODUS.

  

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Ralph CurrellFri Oct-27-17 08:22 AM
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#55594, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 27


          

Hi Lionel,

That is very helpful! Please convey my thanks to Ken for those images.

I can't make out a motor controller behind the gear casing (which we'd expect if it were mounted atop the motor as on the boat winches). Possibly the controller was mounted elsewhere, or it was carried away during the breakup and sinking.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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bpreadFri Oct-27-17 09:02 AM
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#55595, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 28


          

A tip of the hat to Ken!
Regards,
Bob Read

  

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Scott AndrewsTue Oct-31-17 11:14 AM
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#55620, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

That's truly wonderful confirmation of the presence of those winches. Thank you, Lionel, for reaching out to Ken, and many thanks to Ken for his kind reply.

Regards,
Scott Andrews
TRMA Trustee

  

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Scott AndrewsFri Oct-20-17 11:14 AM
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#55549, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

This entire thing is "news" to me. I've never seen any indication of winches installed at the starting platform level of either engine room -- just the overhead traveling lifting hoists which were operated with both a chain wheel and an electric motor. I have seen one or two drawings which show what are identifiable as more pumps located between the engines than those shown in the greatly simplified "Shipbuilder" plan. I'm NOT suggesting in any way that I believe that there CANNOT be winches in these locations -- only that in the four decades that I have been studying the machinery of these ships, I have never seen a drawing or a written description indicating winches of this type in the locations shown here on board Titanic, or on board Olympic as completed. As always, I look forward to seeing anything new that has come to light regarding the machinery spaces!

Regards,
Scott Andrews
TRMA Trustee

  

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leonWed Oct-25-17 01:20 PM
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#55577, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

Reply of autorised for the post plans engenering n'y Simon Mills:

I need to work on the possibilities. The 433 elevation is a bit difficult as it is not my property, and to distribute it would require the permission of Harland & Wolff. They have given me their agreement for the elevation and GAs to be used in my new book, so at this moment I have to be especially careful about releasing too much in the public domain (or my publisher will also get very upset with me) but if you like you can use post the engine room setion in the TRMA thread which you mentioned. It might clarify the location of the winches for Scott Andrews...


Sorry for all my spelling mistakes.

The update for my blog and my web page:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/794574807249192/

http://adesdubd.skyrock.com/
KIND REGARDS.

The best forum TRMA
LIONEL CODUS.

  

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Cyril.CodusFri Oct-27-17 09:43 AM
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#55596, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 16
Fri Oct-27-17 11:45 AMby Cyril.Codus

  

          

Hi,

The image that Ralph posted of the winch, the engine is different on this type, it is for this reason that on the image of the engine room telephones and the image of the wreckage we do not see it .
The two reinforcement of the axis is also of different type on this winch which looks like that of the wreck.




Best TRMA....

Kind Regards.

  

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bpreadFri Oct-27-17 10:37 AM
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#55597, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 30
Fri Oct-27-17 11:17 AMby bpread

          

Is it possible that the engine room winches didn't have oil reservoirs on top of the motors? One would expect so see one in The Electrician photo.
Regards,
Bob Read
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/35267392@N06/26192607839/in/dateposted-public/" title="winch180001"><img src="" width="650" height="207" alt="winch180001"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

  

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Ralph CurrellFri Oct-27-17 06:44 PM
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#55598, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 31
Fri Oct-27-17 06:55 PMby Ralph Currell

          

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the drawing. That's not far off how I would imagine it appears, perhaps with the drums a bit further apart to clear the centreline pillars.

I've been assuming the object atop the motor on the cargo and boat winches was the electrical controller (many photos show a hand-wheel or lever protruding at the end facing the operator's position).

Regards,
Ralph

  

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bpreadSat Oct-28-17 06:36 AM
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#55599, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 32


          

Hi Ralph:
That was just a quick and dirty conversion of a Sunderland Forge winch to a Chambers, Scott model. If Steve is going to go with a Chambers, Scott model as I believe he should, some research will be in order. Below is the motor end of a Chambers, Scott boat winch. Setting aside the unusual set-up of the warping drums, you can see right away this is quite a different design than the Sunderland Forge winches. For instance, in this photo, I am unable to identify anything like the foot brake bar as seen on the Sunderland Forge winches. Additionally I can't identify any place where the on/off, motor speed controller handle would be located. On the Sunderland forge models it is above the end of the motor. I know the handle is not always inserted in the Sunderland Forge models but I don't see any place in this photo where it would insert.
I think it is clear that to get a really accurate portrayal of one of these winches that we're going to need to look at a patent drawing.
Regards,
Bob Read
https://flic.kr/p/FW5qSk>https://flic.kr/p/FW5qSk>Winch19 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/35267392@N06/>bpread, on Flickr

  

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Cyril.CodusSat Oct-28-17 06:46 AM
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#55600, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 32
Sat Oct-28-17 07:06 AMby Cyril.Codus

  

          

Hi all,

I changed the winch of Ralph's picture, I think it's close to us we're looking for.

Best TRMA....

Kind Regards.

  

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bpreadSat Oct-28-17 08:16 AM
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#55601, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 34


          

Hi Cyril
As I said in my post above, these are Chambers, Scott winches not Sunderland Forge like your photo. We need to either find better photos of the Chambers, Scott winches or patent drawings.
Regards
Bob Read

  

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Cyril.CodusSat Oct-28-17 05:10 PM
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#55602, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

Hi Bob, Thank you, I I hope we find an identical model of winch.

Best TRMA....

Kind Regards.

  

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bpreadSun Oct-29-17 08:30 AM
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#55604, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 36


          

Ralph is undoubtedly the best at tracking down a side elevation photo of a Chambers, Scott & Co. winch of the type used aboard ship. I did a preliminary search without much results. I did find this link in Google books: https://books.google.com/books?id=1tSFuF8BkhgC&q=chambers,+scott+%26+co.+Aquitania&dq=chambers,+scott+%26+co.+Aquitania&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwitubn885XXAhWL14MKHWrHAmAQ6AEIJjAA

This is a link to possibly a photo of a Chambers, Scott winch in the Shipbuilder issue about Aquitania. I don't know if anybody has Mark D. Warren's reprint of thiis issue but this is about the only thing I could come up with.
Regards
Bob Read

  

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Ralph CurrellSun Oct-29-17 10:16 AM
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#55605, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 37
Sun Oct-29-17 10:30 AMby Ralph Currell

          

Hi Bob,

Thanks for pointing that out. I don't have the 'Shipbuilder' reprint handy, but the 'Engineering' article on the Aquitania also shows a Chambers, Scott hoist, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was the same photo in both publications.



The grooved drum looks more like something we'd see on a passenger lift or stores hoist, but the arrangement of the motor and gear wheel might be applicable to our engine room winch.

Regards,
Ralph

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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bpreadSun Oct-29-17 11:55 AM
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#55606, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 38


          

Hi Ralph:
You guessed correctly. The image in the Shipbuilder reprint is the same one as in Engineering. Bill Sauder contacted me about it.
The two things I had been puzzled about may be becoming more clear:

1. The absence of a foot brake bar. I'm thinking that they may have used a hand brake wheel which would tighten the brake drum bands on the brake drum as seen in the photo below. This wheel may not have been kept rigged but was inserted in a socket when necessary.

2. The absence of a motor on/off switch and speed controller as seen on the motor end of the Sunderland Forge winches. I think that like them the handle was not always rigged but was inserted when operations were to begin. Where exactly it was inserted is a little unclear as the motor set-ups seem to vary quite a lot on the Chambers, Scott winches.
Regards,
Bob Read

https://flic.kr/p/FYLhHH>https://flic.kr/p/FYLhHH>winch22 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/35267392@N06/>bpread, on Flickr

  

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bpreadSun Oct-29-17 12:22 PM
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#55607, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 39


          

Little by little the answers may be coming. One reason we don't see a brake foot bar or a brake wheel might be because they might have used a "flapper" brake. This uses the motor itself to apply braking. I believe this is what we see in the second Chambers, Scott winch photo I posted. Leon Codus posted an excerpt from Engineering about a Laurence, Scott winch with these "flapper" brakes. I'll post a pic but here is the relevant text.
Regards,
Bob Read
https://flic.kr/p/YQMqrd>https://flic.kr/p/YQMqrd>winch24 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/35267392@N06/>bpread, on Flickr

  

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bpreadSun Oct-29-17 12:27 PM
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#55608, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 40


          

Here's the drawing of the Laurence, Scott motor with the flapper brake on the end of the motor.
Regards,
Bob Read


https://flic.kr/p/ZVrBup>https://flic.kr/p/ZVrBup>winch23a by https://www.flickr.com/photos/35267392@N06/>bpread, on Flickr

  

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Cyril.CodusSun Oct-29-17 01:04 PM
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#55609, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

Hi Bob, the winch in good size.



Best TRMA....

Kind Regards.

  

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Bill WestTue Oct-31-17 10:29 PM
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#55621, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 42


          

First a big thanks to Lionel and Ken for the wreck pictures. Now some bits:
I found that the worm drives are not necessarily self locking. If made with 2 to 4 leads on the worm they can drive back. So the presence of load braking should not be a surprise.
Series motors at light load have a weak field and thus little back EMF. This leads to the possibility of over speeding and either the drag brake we are seeing on a few models or Laurence, Scott's flapper brake becomes desirable.
A self stopping brake on a power failure is also desired as is an interlock to prevent powering with the load brake on.

Making a bit of a recap here, we have:

Bob's reply to post 4 1907?
Chambers, Scott, fig 60 cargo -controller is part of the motor case
a load brake band is visible

Ralph's reply to post 5 1907
Chambers, Scott, fig 59 baggage -controller on nearby bulkhead? terminal box sloping off motor top
drag brake??

Steve's reply to post 10 1911
Sunderland, boat -controller on top
load brake and a drag brake

Bob's reply to post 32 1907
Chambers, Scott, fig 58 boat -controller post at left, rest in base. terminal box sloping off motor top
drag brake

Ralph's reply to post 37 Aquitania 1914
Chambers, Scott, fig 37 baggage. -controller on nearby bulkhead
automatic holding brake

Bob's reply to post 40 Mauretania 1907
Laurence, Scott, fig 167 boat -controller and resistors in base
flapper brake

A lot of ways to do this... For our ER winch I'm undecided,
-a load brake is plausible and I think placing the controller and resistors beside the motor would fit the Britannic GA plan. A box case partly like Chambers, Scott's cargo winch would fit. Including a drag brake would be an option.
-alternatively the fig 58 boat winch looks very good,

Bill

  

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bpreadWed Nov-01-17 06:06 AM
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#55622, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 44


          

For the last few days I have been drawing what I think may be a relatively close approximation of the Chambers, Scott & Co. winches in Titanic's engine room. I have used to guide me:
1. The Electrician photo.
2 The photos of Chambers, Scott cargo and baggage winches.
3. The drawings of the Laurence, Scott winch drawing from Engineering.
4. A drawing posted below which gives a better lateral perspective of a motor with a flapper brake.

I believe that the Chambers, Scott winch did have a flapper brake. Many of their shipboard winches had them. Plus you can't see any box-like structure that the Sunderland Forge winches had on top of the motors in the Electrician photo. I will post the finished drawing within the next day or so. I didn't want anybody to think I had given up on this one.
Regards
Bob Read

https://flic.kr/p/G5S6dk>https://flic.kr/p/G5S6dk>winch28 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/35267392@N06/>bpread, on Flickr

  

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bpreadWed Nov-01-17 08:52 AM
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#55623, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 45


          

Ok, I finished drawing a proposed configuration for a Chambers, Scott, & Co. winch found in Titanic's engine room. This is a drawing of the aft winch. They are identical but the orientation is different. In my previous post I explained which photos/plans I used as a guide. Their warping drums had a different shape than the ones we see on the Sunderland Forge winches.
The first drawing is a standard 5 view drawing. The second drawing shows a plan view of the winch against a 15 in. diameter column found in the engine room. The second item in the drawing shows a 5 ft. 8 in. man standing next to the winch for scale.
Some may have other ideas but I tried to keep speculation to a minimum but at least I think this may be closer to what we see than the Sunderland Forge winches.
Regards,
Bob Read

https://flic.kr/p/YX6ULN>https://flic.kr/p/YX6ULN>winch290001 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/35267392@N06/>bpread, on Flickr


https://flic.kr/p/ZZ2LK3>https://flic.kr/p/ZZ2LK3>winch300001 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/35267392@N06/>bpread, on Flickr

  

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Ralph CurrellWed Nov-01-17 10:53 AM
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#55624, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 46


          

Hi Bob,

Those drawings look good. Until further photos or documents show up, that may be as close as we can get to guessing how the winches appeared.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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Bill WestWed Nov-01-17 02:41 PM
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#55625, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 47


          

Excellent, Bob. A little lift to the motor will leave room to fit the controller space underneath per the Chambers Scott fig.58 boat winch photo. I think Steve had some information on the ER painting which might give the height of the paint on the aft bulkhead for scaling. The overall length of nearly 10' is quite a bit bigger than the length shown on the Britannic GA plan.

The possibility of the brake being a flapper type is interesting although Laurence, Scott claimed it as a patent. The Chambers, Scott fig.58 picture certainly leaves it as a possibility. Which brand is the photo in your reply to post 44?

Bill

  

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bpreadWed Nov-01-17 03:33 PM
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#55626, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 48


          

Hi Bill: There is a problem with giving some "lift" to the motor. In raising the motor you also have to raise the gear wheel which drives the warping drums. What that does is raise the height of the center of the warping drums if you maintain the size of the drive gear wheel. Titanic's 3 ton cargo winches had the center of their warping drums approximately 42 inches off the deck. My drawing has their centers at about 40 in. off the deck. If you decrease the diameter of the drive gear then you don't maintain the visible height of the drive gear above the warping drum as seen in the Electrician photo in Ralph's post #5. Also in that post is Fig. 59 which shows a Chamber's, Scott baggage winch on the forward side with very little base under the forward aspect of the winch. As far as Steves estimation, of the height of the painted dado on the post, it doesn't appear that he followed the Electrician photo in Ralph's post #5 because the top of the drive gear wheel housing in his rendering is very near to the height of the top of the dado (at least ins some views) while in the Electrician photo, the top of the housing is considerably below the top of the dado.
Additionally in Fig. 58 above, There is a Chambers, Scott winch which clearly has a flapper brake so it isn't confined to Laurence, Scott.
There are a lot of factors which have to jibe when you actually start drawing. I welcome criticism but this was about the only way I could make things work.
Regards,
Bob Read

  

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Bill WestWed Nov-01-17 06:42 PM
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#55627, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 49


          

Hi Bob. I wasn't taking the position of the brake drum on the end of the motor as being a sign that it was a flapper brake. A drag brake could be just as easily be mounted there and would look nearly the same. Fig.58 may well be a flapper brake but it's not particularly certain on the point and that's why I was interested in knowing the brand in your reply to post 44.

If the motor isn't lifted then the controller handle needs to reach to a controller box located elsewhere, the pedestal alone doesn't have enough room for the starting resistors.

The top of the gear case in the Electrician photo is completely below the telephone mouthpieces, maybe a lower tonnage leads to a smaller gear wheel diameter, saving space both above and below. Something has to give in the dimensions anyway because the Britannic GA suggests a total length of only about 5'.

The fig.167 winch you found gets everything in about 42" total height and 5'8" length. It only lifts 1344 lbs but is fast enough to need a 14 hp motor. With the motor dimensions reduced 30% perhaps it is the suitable example for our ER winch.

Bill

  

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bpreadWed Nov-01-17 08:49 PM
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#55628, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 50


          

Bill: The dimensions of the Fig. 167 winch represent only a 12 cwt winch as opposed to a 40 cwt winch in Titanic's engine room. I don't see how you can correlate sizes given such a size disparity.
Also I don't see how you raise the aft part of the base without considerably decreasing the diameter of the motor and its lifting capacity.
Everything that is done to address a perceived problem runs up against other constraints. I thought maybe I was helping things along but apparently not. I'll leave this in other more capable hands.

Regards
Bob Read

  

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bpreadMon Nov-06-17 09:45 AM
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#55642, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 51


          

I decided to revise my winch drawings for the engine room. The difficulty in my previous attempt was arriving at the correct scale. In these revised drawings I decided to use the telephones on the support column as a scale. In analyzing a photo of Olympic's portable telephone on the docking bridge I was able to scale elements of the telephone. I found that from the deck to the bottom of the circular opening into which you speak is about 55 in. I found the opening itself to be about 5 inches in diameter. I made the assumption that all the telephone installations were at the same height off the deck. Since there is no corded handset it had to be placed in the midrange of average heights of persons who would be using it.
The revised version of my winch is smaller than my first attempt. The first drawing shows a five view scaled drawing. The second drawing shows a drawing of the winch behind the support column (dashed). The telephone is placed on the column at the height mentioned above and the top of the winch is 5 in. below the bottom of the opening into which you speak into the telephone. A 5 ft. 8 in. man is in the drawing for scale.
Regards,
Bob Read

https://flic.kr/p/21bcCQu>https://flic.kr/p/21bcCQu>winch380001 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/35267392@N06/>bpread, on Flickr

https://flic.kr/p/2195Gzd>https://flic.kr/p/2195Gzd>winch370001 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/35267392@N06/>bpread, on Flickr

  

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Bill WestTue Nov-07-17 02:03 AM
Member since Feb 02nd 2010
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#55643, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 52


          

I think you've got it Bob. That seems to have fitted the proportions in very well.

Bill

  

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Ralph CurrellTue Nov-07-17 07:01 AM
Member since Mar 31st 2007
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#55644, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 53


          

Hi Bob,

I like the look of that. The higher base gives room for the controller and resistances underneath, if the layout was similar to the Laurence Scott winch plans posted earlier.

Regards,
Ralph

  

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bpreadTue Nov-07-17 07:33 AM
Member since Sep 29th 2003
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#55645, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 54


          

Thanks guys, the first effort wasn't quite in the ballpark; maybe the parking lot. I think this version may be in the infield. I kept the flapper brake design because we don't see the structure containing the resistances atop the motor in the Electrician photo which we would if we were dealing with the Sunderland Forge design. Other than that I followed the photos of the Chambers, Scott winches and the plans of the Laurence, Scott winch. I've been wondering if there was some connection between the Scott in both those companies given that their winch designs are very similar.
Regards,
Bob Read

  

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SteveFurySun Nov-12-17 10:51 AM
Member since Feb 20th 2017
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#55651, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 55


          

I just wanted to say this thread is an outstanding example of the quality of this unique community. It's not often you find such a group of people willing and happy to pool their knowledge and experience to work together and solve a mystery. To help those who ask.

As a newer member, the courtesy, friendship and common bond of the people here are very noticeable. And most appreciated.

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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bpreadSun Nov-12-17 04:47 PM
Member since Sep 29th 2003
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#55652, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 56


          

HI Steve: It's gratifying to try to help someone who is a creator who is clearly putting a lot of sweat equity into their effort. You have tackled what is clearly the most complex area on Titanic. I have always known that I was out of my depth in the engine room. I know that a group developing a video game called Titanic Honor and Glory is eventually going to attempt what you have so ably accomplished. Have they approached you about being a contributor?
Regards
Bob Read

  

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SteveFuryFri Nov-24-17 05:55 AM
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#55658, "RE: Winches in reciprocating engine room (starting platform level)"
In response to Reply # 57


          

I finally got around to making these winches. Below is my rendition of them. The springs are a little funky:







Thanks for looking!

Steve Fury
from Atlanta,GA USA

  

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Titanic artwork at top of page is owned and copyright of Stuart Williamson and is used with permission.